Honestly...

Dressed to Kill

I have fun with my clothes on stage; it's not a concert you're seeing, it's a fashion show. -Freddie Mercury

There has been a change in men's attitudes toward their clothes. Men are more aware of fashion; they're not afraid of it. -Calvin Klein

She had a womanly instinct that clothes possess an influence more powerful over man than the worth of character or the magic of manners. -Louisa May Alcott

On TV people look at your hair and then they look at your skin, and then they look at your clothes, and by the time they're listening to what you're saying, you're off the screen. -Doug Coupland

Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes.  -Thoreau

Comments

What point are you trying to make here?

-An Anglican priest that embraces Reformed theology...

I'm not opposed to Anglican priests being Anglican, which includes wearing collars. I find it humorous for Presbyterian ministers to try to look like Lutheran or Anglican or Roman Catholic priests. Why it's not dressup for Anglican priests to wear collars is a complicated thought process for me, and it's very late. But ain't those quotes just the bombdiggity? Love,

Nothing says Reformed like a Geneva gown...  :)

This all depends on the local cultural situation. It is very common in Scotland and Ireland for Presbyterian ministers in the Free Church, Free Presbyterian, and Reformed Presbyterian Church of Scotland to wear collars and of course the Protestants invented the collar, which was later adopted by the Romanists when they dropped the full cassock as normal daily wear. 

It also used to be common in the United States for Presbyterian ministers to wear a collar (even Charles Hodge wore one). It was killed primarily by egalitarianism. 

I wear a Geneva Gown for both cultural and, in my opinion, good theological reasons. 

I'd rather see pastors go this direction than the preppy uniform (navy blazer , khakis and a rep tie) or the corporate titan (dark suit and cuff links) or the professorial (tweeds, oxford button down, knit tie) or the hipster with untucked shirt, skinny jeans and bracelet, or the macho man with the chained wallet, ironic t-shirt, and sandals.

C'mon brother; everyone chooses a costume.  The guys at Providence see themselves as part of a larger catholic tradition that extends beyond Geneva.  Convince me that their approach makes a detrimental difference or is any different from the studiously casual man with his authentic tats (he's not wearing jeans because he's a day laborer).

With affection.

"casual man with his authentic tats (he's not wearing jeans because he's a day laborer)."

Except for when he is.

Except usually he ISNT.  At least not in my experience of contemporary reformed worship leaders.

Oops, sorry for the duplicate link. Somehow missed the 10:38 comment!

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I thought these were nice. Less severe than black. Then there's this:

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... of clerical uniforms, particularly concerning the way that Romans adopted Protestant dress when the requirement that they wear a cassock as normal uniform was relaxed.

This is one reason I dress in public in ways that ordinary folk in this part of the world think is Roman.  It invariably gives me a chance to make a variety of useful points in my discussions with inquirers, as to original Protestant genesis of the fashion they think is "owned" by the Romans.  Of course, there is a whole host of "stuff" in our proper Christian heritage that Protestants -- the Reformed often leading the way -- have overtly ceded to the Romans, leaving themselves impoverished in the bargain. 

My public dress, therefore, amidst its other purposes, establishes a sort of beachhead for reclaiming from Western Christianity what is every bit as much the property of Protestants as it is the Romans, whose Christianity-ness (where it is actually there) is far more at home within Protestantism than within Romanism. 

Your rallying of so many sodomites to make your point makes me wonder if you think they are speaking the will of of what these men (at least one my friend) believe about culture, calling and attire.

Do you actually believe that Thoreau has a firm grasp on the nature of sacred space?  Perhaps we should probably all go naked together so that we can appreciate all that Walden has to offer.

Silly post my friend.

al sends

Look, men, pics of Presbyterians from centuries ago mean nothing in our present context. Commitment to simplicity and avoiding associations with Romanism, along with a desire not to call attention to oneself by being trendsetters, are the very opposite of what colored robes and stoles communicate today. Look at the pics on the web site linked giving history lessons about hoops and bustles and whalebone stays and collars. If Reformed men want to appear museum pieces, they should adopt the shoulder-length hair of every one of the pics in the linked web page.

For myself, I would counsel pastors to avoid anything a common man sees as an affectation or effeminacy no matter who wore it how often how many centuries ago. In Anglican churches, let them do their thing and at least they've been doing the same thing all along. But the rest of us, about the only thing from the past you can argue has made it into the present without alteration is a simple black gown. We've all seen it and we all know it is almost always tall steeple men who wore it in the past--men with rich parishioners. Our OPC pastor wore one when I was in seminary, but it was because certain individuals in the congregation couldn't bear his old corduroy coat and, having had him refuse their effort to buy him a new suit, they asked him then to always to wear a robe. Humbly, he did as the ones with what they were certain was good taste requested.

So, I'm cool with a black robe as a way of keeping off the criticisms of rich people. But other than that, I think our dress should be uneventful for our community.

Love,

Dear Al, I'm rallying no sodomites, but rather the department of silly looks. I'm using ridicule to try to get us to return to the things that matter. Everyone should read John Frames little essay found here to understand why we ought NOT to adopt museum piece affectations or Romanisms.

And keep in mind all an Englishman's preferences are a matter of principle!

Love,

You should come visit ClearNote Church, Indianapolis, where one of the pastors is a day-laborer, tattoos and all :)

(But usually he's too civilized to wear his day-laborer jeans to church)

At one time, I belonged to the a congregation associated with the Evangelical Covenant Church in North America (last stop before becoming Episcopalian -> Anglican). Through a listserv associated with this denomination I came to know a pastor who ministered in a rural parish in West Virginia adjacent to southeastern Ohio. 

He told the listserv the reason he wore a collar in places like hospitals,  hospices, nursing homes and the like was because he found that people seemed to respect him more when he self-identified himself as a "man of the cloth" and felt more comfortable approaching him than if he wore a business suit and just a name pin with The Rev. Glenn yyyy and his church affiliation.

Here's a comment sent to me by e-mail from a lifelong Presbyterian minister who graduated from Pittsburgh Theological Seminary almost half a century ago. He didn't think it worthy of a comment. I thought it worthy of a post. Love,

Well, I spend my free evenings throwing 20 year olds around and perfecting my arm bars with the numerous family members produced from my vigorous monogamous heterosexual lifestyle. I also wear a white Geneva on Sunday and clericals during the week because I'm a Reformed pastor. I think some of lamest things I could wear here in Southern California is the casual clothing of an effeminate hipster or the pretentious blazer and bow-tie of a Southern lawyer.

A 46 year old former Marine.

I always liked this one from Chesterton's What's Wrong with the World:

But when men wish to be safely impressive, as judges, priests or kings, they do wear skirts, the long, trailing robes of female dignity. The whole world is under petticoat government; for even men wear petticoats when they wish to govern.

Speaking of what's wrong with the world: http://www.credenda.org/index.php/The-Cave/a-whole-new-meaning-to-qlittl...

God commanded the Levites to wear official robes for beauty and so that the people would respect them.  The Levities have gone, but beauty and respect have not, being the eternal principles expressed in the Mosaic dispensation.

Vestments are based on solid biblical principle.  Of course, if a Pastor feels uncomfortable wearing them, he is free not to.  

Must I say it? Ties can be beautiful, but colored robes with stoles are theological. Their association is priestly. Do we really want to waste capital changing that association in our effeminate age?

Pastors are not priests. And since many, many men think we are priests and even argue for it, we ought to do what we can to make certain no one makes that mistake with us. He is seated.

Wear a Geneva gown if you must. Otherwise, dress in a way that will cause your sheep to come to you to lead them to green pasture and still waters and a little rodding and staffing when they need it.

We are not academics and pulpiteers. We are shepherds. 

Love,

Tim, a black stole (a scarf to me) signifies authority to preach and communicate the sacraments.  The hood tells the people that their minister is properly educated.  The long Old English white surplus looks good, lends and air of authority, and says that the wearer is one of the good guys.  A cassock keeps one warm in the English climate, and is not a vestment.

Naturally, they are not compulsory, unless required by the authority of your church's rulers.

The word priest is Old English for presbyter, it is a contraction.  A priest is not a sacerdos, a sacrificer.

In short, these English vestments and names are not sacerdotal in any way.

A black Geneva gown says that you are from an Academy, that you are a scholar.  What has that to do with pastoring? Ties are fine, but who wears a suit today except a Baptist pastor?

A pastor must look good and command respect by the way he dresses, whatever that dress may be.

Dear Roger, Almost everything you say signifies this or that signifies nothing of the sort in the world I inhabit. For instance, this is a university community and a hood on a pastor signifies a poser, bounder, reacher.

Speaking personally, I think a pastor pursuing a doctorate whether Ph. Th. or Min., is a pastor getting involved in civilian affairs. There may be a few times when it's necessary, but in the main I've always seen it as the weakness of men who love the trappings of authority and seek the world's approval.

Now I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I want the young men reading this to have someone somewhere warning them against the world's baubles.

Love,

The word "priest" might have come down from Greek "presbuteros" through Latin, then Germanic to Old English to Middle English to Modern English, but somewhere along the line its meaning changed. And it was over 400 years ago, since "presbuteros" is translated "elder" in the KJV consistently, and "hiereus" is translated "priest." In English for the last 400 years at least, Jesus has been called our "High Priest", not our "High Sacerdos." Nor does it mean that He is our "High Presbyter" or "High Elder" as your point would mislead people to think.

Not to mention that the #1 definition on Dictionary.com is "a person whose office it is to perform religious rites, and especially to make sacrificial offerings."

And Wikipedia's entry starts with, "A priest is a person authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and deity(s). They also have the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities."

Emphases mine. 

I'd say it's a little bit too late to reclaim "priest" as an abbreviation for "elder", especially since "elder" is shorter. :)

Tim and Joseph

I live and work in England, and while I accept the way these things look in your town, things are different here.  English Presbyters/Priests in the Reformed Church of England always wore surplus, hood and scarf, without anyone thinking they were posing.  They also wore an academic gown on occasion while preaching to show their friendship with Geneva.

The academic hood in England signifies a university education, not necessarily a Ph.D. or D.D..

The word priest in the Reformed Church of England never means a sacrificer, contrary to the definition you found.  The black rubric in the BCP makes it clear that no sacrificing or transubstantiation is happening in the Communion Service, not to mention the explicit Articles of Religion.

It boils down to context.  Here in Blighty things look different.

>> Here in Blighty things look different.

Tim: "I would counsel pastors to avoid anything a common man sees as an affectation or effeminacy..." Does that include bow ties? Just wondered!

>>Does that include bow ties?

Yup, and that's why I rarely wear bow ties Sunday mornings. 

Love,

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