An apology for women ministers in the PCA...
By Tim and David Bayly
Meet Sara Bartley "Minister of Church Life" at City Presbyterian Church (PCA) of Denver.
Read an apology for her work by the Rev. Sam Downing, Senior Pastor of City Presbyterian Church.
(Here's Pastor Downing's original document as a PDF.)
But first, a few words of explanation....
When TE David Kniseley of Rocky Mountain Presbytery discovered in mid-January 2007 that City Presbyterian Church of Denver had hired and appointed (not ordained and installed) a woman to be Minister of Congregational Care he called City Presbyterian senior pastor and fellow presbyter, Sam Downing, and requested that City Presbyterian forego the title “Minister” for a woman staff member. TE Downing declined the request.
Pastor Kniseley then overtured Rocky Mountain Presbytery to instruct City Presbyterian Church to conform to the Presbyterian Church in America’s Book of Church Order in this matter by no longer using the title “Minister” for any non-ordained staff member.
Because Pastor Kniseley’s overture was submitted too late for normal inclusion on the January 2007 docket, the Standing Rules of Rocky Mountain Presbytery required a two-thirds vote for new business to be added. The vote failed. Pastor Kniseley’s overture was thus added to the April 2007 docket of Rocky Mountain Presbytery.
In February, 2007, Pastor Downing wrote the paper we critique below titled “The PCA and Gospel Ministry in an Urban, Egalitarian Environment: Toward a Theologically Accurate, Culturally Appropriate Apologetic,” circulating his paper as an explanation and defense of his church’s practice with regard to women in ministry. In March, 2007, Village Seven Presbyterian Church (Colorado Springs) sent an additional overture to Rocky Mountain Presbytery asking for it to be passed on to General Assembly. Their overture sought to amend the Book of Church Order so it would explicitly state the word ‘minister’ always refers to a teaching elder.
Both overtures (from Pastor Kniseley and Village Seven Presbyterian Church) were slated to come before Rocky Mountain Presbytery for action in April’s meeting. TE Dominic Aquila, the 2006 Moderator of General Assembly, took both overtures and recast them into two motions—a main and a substitute motion.
Main motion: "That the Presbytery acknowledge that the title 'minister' as used in the Book of Church Order of the Presbyterian Church in America is synonymous with 'pastor' and 'teaching elder,' and as such none of these titles may be used to refer to any but ordained teaching elders."
Substitute Motion: "That the Presbytery acknowledge that the title 'minister' as used in the Book of Church Order of the Presbyterian Church in America is synonymous with 'pastor' and 'teaching elder,' however, that it also acknowledge that the title 'minister' has been used in a general or generic manner and in this general way can be used for unordained church staff members."
The Main Motion, if approved, would have required City Presbyterian Church (and other churches in Rocky Mountain Presbytery who have used this term for staff people) to remove that title, replacing it with some other word such as 'Director.' The Substitute Motion, if approved, would have permitted City Presbyterian Church to allow its female staff member to retain her title, "Minister of Congregational Care."
The substitute motion (agreeing with the logic of the following paper) was adopted by Rocky Mountain Presbytery on a 32 to 26 vote.
Now, with that background, click below to read Rev. Downing's paper with our critique interspersed within it...
The PCA and Gospel Ministry in an Urban, Egalitarian Environment:
Toward a Theologically Accurate, Culturally Appropriate ApologeticBy Rev. Sam Downing
Introduction
The Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) faces a unique challenge at this juncture in its history, namely to remain faithful to its polity of reserving the office of elder and deacon to the male gender while still maintaining an effective witness to a culture that has moved, and continues to move toward a more egalitarian position. This culture shift is true in both the non-religious (“secular”) sphere as well as in the religious sphere. As in the shift which took place during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s which largely dismantled discrimination on the basis of race, the freedom of women in the United States to serve in any office or capacity (secular or religious) is increasingly seen as a fundamental civil right. And thus to deny a woman any position on the basis of her gender…
Use of the word ‘gender’ is significant here. ‘Sex’ refers to a dualistic, rock-hard biological reality. Body parts don’t lie. But speak of ‘gender’ and we’re able to place our sexual identity at any point along an almost infinite continuum thereby transmuting sex into a social construct or role. ‘Sex’ is determined by God in the womb. ‘Gender’ inevitably leads us to think of each person’s sexual identity as a very personal choice. We’re squeamish to use the word ‘sex’ because it conjures up thoughts of body parts and physical intimacy. But we need to return to it because it anchors the battle over sexuality in God’s created order rather than man’s rebellion.
…is considered bigoted, narrow-minded and a violation of her civil rights. Though the more rural and conservative regions of the United States have been slower to adopt this worldview (at least in the realm of religion) this is certainly the case in the major cities and urban areas.
Let’s be clear: it’s actually the gender-anarchists who are bigots and narrow-minded, not those who honor Scripture’s doctrine of sexuality. Feminists and homosexualists are destroying the beautiful diversity of sexuality, seeking instead a transgendered androgynous uniformity of polymorphous perversity.
One would assume the writer disagrees with the assertion that those confessing Scripture’s doctrine of sexuality are “bigoted” and “narrow-minded,” but there’s no statement, either here or later indicating as much. Does it grieve the writer’s heart to know the world is lost in such rebellion that it believes the battle to end slavery and racism is morally equivalent to the battle to end father-rule?
In the midst of such high-handed rhetoric, let’s not forget the Word of God. The distinction of the sexes was created before the Fall whereas these other distinctions came after the Fall. The significance of sexuality for leadership and submission was decreed by God prior to the Fall, as the Holy Spirit tells us: “I do not allow a woman to exercise authority over a man…for Adam was created first, and then Eve.” Leadership and submission are the deep ecology of creation sexuality, not the product of “ancient patriarchal cultures.”
We must resist the enticement to use the world’s rebellion to justify our own compromises in matters where we fear that standing on Scriptural truth would hamstring our church’s growth. Rather, let’s take the Apostle Paul as our model for church growth. He was neither mollycoddling the Athenians nor dealing softly with their rebellion against God when he approached the Areopagus: “In the past God has overlooked such ignorance, but now He demands that all people everywhere repent. For He has fixed a day when He will judge all men…” And the church grew.
A similar shift has taken place within the American religious landscape, where virtually all of the so-called “Mainline” denominations and many charismatic, Pentecostal and other independent churches in North America have shifted to an “egalitarian” perspective of ordaining women to church office. This raises a vital question, “How can the PCA effectively minister in American culture generally, and in an egalitarian urban culture particularly, when it holds to a theological position that denies women ordination into church office?”
Why does the writer keep referring to it as the “egalitarian perspective” rather than the “egalitarian error” or “rebellion?”
But beyond word choice, this is such a tragic question for a PCA teaching elder to be asking. The errors and rebellion of the world have always been our greatest opportunities to preach the Gospel. Yet this writer implies that the feminist rebellion renders the Gospel impotent, creating such a crisis of legitimacy in the eyes of the world that we must hide the biblical truth about sexuality—or even leave it behind.
Every one of us must choose: either egalitarian feminists are right and the Church and her officers have arrived at such a crisis of legitimacy that we must deny the “hopelessly patriarchal god of the Bible” lest we sentence our ministries and congregations to cultural oblivion or we stand at one of the greatest opportunities we’ll ever have to evangelize the lost, entering their hearts and minds through the altars of their egalitarian gods and then leading them to the One True God Who “made the world and everything in it…”
Among our nation’s feminist pantheon is the god which demands our unborn children. Our streets run with blood spilled in homage to this modern-day Molech. What will we do? Will we serve this god ourselves? Will we treat such false worship tenderly? Or will we, in the power of the Only True God, our Heavenly Father, fight it to the death?
Luke records for us that when the Apostle Paul proclaimed the Resurrection of the dead to the Areopagus, the sophisticated Athenians “sneered” at him. If those in bondage to the spirit of our age sneer at the Fatherhood of God writ large over His creation, we should—what?—try to figure out how to hide or soft-sell that doctrine so that our message containing the pure kernel of the Gospel (and nothing else) will not be harmed by this sadly negative association?
The truth is that the biblical doctrines of sexuality are fantastic opportunities for evangelism today precisely because the world hates them. These doctrines are the gap in the wall where our culture has been focusing its attack upon God for decades: abortion, fornication, adultery, divorce, father-rule, women in combat, marriage, etc. Do we really believe capitulation in these areas will win an honest hearing for the Gospel? And if so, will our capitulation be limited to the biblical doctrine of father-rule, or will we accommodate over and over again until every sin of our nation is exempt from scrutiny by a “culturally appropriate” Church
It seems apparent that the author of this paper fails to see egalitarian feminism as an opportunity for evangelism and discipleship. A commitment to excluding women from serving as elders is not the same as standing in the breach and confessing the biblical doctrine of sexuality. Tight and stingy obedience is no obedience at all. The world’s attacks upon Scriptural truths are Gospel opportunities—not crises of legitimacy.
The PCA: Polity
The Book of Church Order (BCO) of the PCA expressly forbids the ordination of women to the office of Deacon or Elder. This position is derived largely from two sources: Primarily, from the PCA’s interpretation of Scripture; secondarily, from the historic tradition of the Church catholic.
Think how different it would sound if the preceding were changed to something along these lines: “The Book of Church Order (BCO) of the PCA expressly forbids the ordination of women to the office of Deacon or Elder. This position is the doctrine of Scripture and the practice of the church throughout church history. Sadly, the egalitarian feminist revolution has begun to make inroads within biblical denominations and churches in the past couple of decades. And we too, in the PCA, are seeing these pressures within our own fellowship.”
Though women are not allowed to be ordained as church officers in the PCA, they are nonetheless seen as spiritual equals to men.
‘Though’ and ‘nonetheless’… The implication is that equality of the sexes and distinction of callings are logically inconsistent.
A term that has become popular in the last twenty-five years to describe this position is complementarian: the view that although…
Again, why use the word “although?” And why “not equal in calling” rather than ‘distinct in calling’?
…women are equal to men in significance and gifting for ministry, they are not equal in calling – men are called to exercise authority in the Church and in the home; women are called to submit to and support men in their roles of leadership and authority. (Men are likewise called to support women in their submission through love and sacrificial service.)
The PCA: Culture and Practice
Within the PCA there is no serious debate over the legitimacy of the complementarian position.
Does the writer view this as a good or a bad thing?
Those who disagree with that position have generally either left the denomination of their own accord or have been forced to leave due to non-compliance with the BCO.
Again, does the writer think it good that they were forced to leave? The best possible construction we can put on this is that City Presbyterian and its pastor have difficulty seeing deviance from the Biblical doctrine of sexuality as sufficiently sinful to call for repentance over.
However, it’s also possible to view this paper as a flat rejection of Biblical teaching. The author may believe that sex has significance for the fitting together of bodies in marriage (and perhaps for the offices of teaching and ruling elder being limited to men). But beyond that? Has God’s truth of Adam first and then Eve captured any part of his heart? It’s not apparent in what’s written here. City Presbyterian appears to submit to the doctrines of its denomination in this realm as one submits to a dentist drilling out a cavity.
However, there is indeed a serious and growing debate surrounding the culture and practice of the PCA in regard to the role of women. A growing number of PCA pastors, elders and laypeople are recognizing that there is much more latitude in regard to the role of women in the church beyond the traditional ministries women are given access to, such as keeping the nursery, teaching children, singing in the choir, teaching within gender restrictive ministries such as Women in the Church (WIC) etc.
The writer attributes the historic focus of godly women on ministry to other women and children to “tradition.” Clearly, he doesn’t intend this as a compliment. He says such limitations are part of our PCA “culture.” Yet throughout church history, the primary reason for these emphases among women in ministry is that these are the foci Scripture has called women to. Consider, inter alia, such passages as 1Timothy 5:9-16 and Titus 2:3-5. Are these texts demeaning to women?
And why label the explicit Titus 2 command (that women teach women) as “gender restrictive” instead of “sex specific?” It seems obvious the word ‘restrictive’ was chosen for its pejorative weight. The writer appears to view such sex-specific work as patronizing and demeaning to women.
These younger generations of PCA leaders and laypeople are not taking issue with the theology of the PCA as much as the culture of the PCA that goes beyond restricting women from holding church office to limiting a woman’s ability to use her spiritual gifts meaningfully…
Really? This little phrase “as much as” is the equivalent of the poker player’s “tell.” In fact, they don’t agree with Scripture’s teaching if that means any ontological and theological understanding of the meaning and purpose of sexuality that comes from Adam being created first, and then Eve. Nor are they likely to agree with any connection of this order of creation to the prohibition of woman exercising authority over man. Consider Scripture’s witness on this issue and ask whether the Word received from the Holy Spirit constitutes City Presbyterian’s “doctrine,” let alone its “culture?”
God created Adam and Eve “in His Own Image” thereby revealing their essential equality in bearing His image:
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” (Genesis 1:26-28)
This is a part of the truth that is the basis of the Apostle Paul’s statement concerning the community of saints:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28).
There are other Scriptural truths in complete harmony with the truth, above, all of which make clear that egalitarianism is rebellion against God:
First, God created Eve after Adam (order of creation):
For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. (1 Timothy 2:13).
Second, God created Eve for Adam (purpose of creation):
Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.” (Genesis 2:18-23).
Third, God Created Eve from Adam (his body was used):
For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man. (1 Corinthians 11:8).
Fourth, Adam named Eve:
Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.” (Genesis 2:19, 22-23).
Fifth, in Adam we all died; not in Eve. Nowhere does Scripture lay the blame for the Fall at Eve’s door:
God, walking in the Garden in the cool of the day, inquires of Adam “Where are you?” When Adam responds by explaining that he and Eve found themselves naked and hid, it is notable that God directs His follow-up question again to Adam asking him:
“Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” (Genesis 3:11).
It was Adam, not Eve, who was required to explain the tragic alienation from God they both had suffered, and this despite Eve having been the one deceived, the first one to sin, and the one who enticed her husband to follow her into that sin. This is neither a small or unimportant aspect of the Genesis account: it was Adam whom God first held responsible for the Fall despite Adam being the second sinner in the Garden.
So today, it is because of the sin of Adam—not Eve—that the race of Adam remains under the curse of judgment and death down to this present day.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Romans 5:12-14).
There’s no question but that the Bible is quite specific on this issue… as the New England Primer (one of the most widely used textbooks in the early history of the United States) succinctly sums it up: “In Adam’s fall We sinned all.”
God’s Word makes clear that because God made Eve for Adam and placed her under his authority, it was Adam whom God called to account for the Fall. Adam was the patriarch of his home and his race. (This is not to say that Eve escaped personal accountability; in Genesis 3 we read that God also placed Eve under a curse- the punishment that even today brings suffering to all women in childbirth. So too the serpent and his descendents suffer under God’s judgment.) Yet it is through Adam alone that death comes to all men, it is because of Adam’s sin that all creation groans awaiting its release from the corruption of sin (Romans 8:22,23), and it is in Adam that we all die:
For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:21-22).
All through the Old Testament, God has named the human race ‘adam,’ and this name reinforces what the whole account of the creation of Adam and Eve reveals-that the first woman was made after and for the first man and that for all time this structure is to be mirrored in the lives of God’s people by their living together under father-rule, not matriarchy or egalitarian utopianism.
If we gave City Presbyterian’s session and pastor the above doctrine and asked them if they wholeheartedly affirm it we suspect they’d claim that the meaning of many of these texts is arguable—and that even if they do mean what they’ve historically been understood by the Church to teach, they need to be massaged to gain the Gospel a hearing in a postmodern, urban, cosmopolitan, ethnically-diverse community. And they would emphasize that these texts were originally written in a patriarchal context quite different from our own…
…as much as the culture of the PCA that goes beyond restricting women from holding church office to limiting a woman’s ability to use her spiritual gifts meaningfully in any way that even appears to be usurping male leadership.
Do the leaders at City Presbyterian see the joy, blessing, and holiness of obedience to these Scriptural principles?
To their way of thinking, has not the Holy Spirit given women the very gifts that insecure PCAers are not allowing to be used in the church?
One serious consequence of this is that the vast majority of PCA churches continue to be populated almost exclusively by politically conservative Anglos.
The failure of PCA churches to attract non-Anglos is attributed to her faithful witness on sexuality. This is an astounding leap of logic. We might as easily attribute the PCA’s cultural makeup to the architecture of its churches or the hardness of its pews
There are a host of reasonable explanations for the current PCA demographic, but the author of this paper has the key which opens every lock. The demographic (and, of course, it’s assumed that the demographic is a failure) of the PCA is entirely due to her not keeping up with the fast-changing egalitarian world within which she dwells. If she would simply give women “meaningful” ministries, she’ll finally pull in the Democrats, the Latinos, the cosmopolitans, etc.
There are many more plausible explanations for our predominantly white, highly-educated, rich, suburban, and politically conservative culture than the PCA’s purported failure to use women’s gifts “meaningfully.” As a start, how about our practice of locating church plants in wealthy communities? How about a musical style and instrumentation so integrally tied to WASPish tastes and our Western cultural background that even middle-class Anglos often don’t get it? How about our don’t-use-any-part-of-the-body-other-than-the-brain culture of worship?
Then again, maybe it’s as simple as our not offering services in Spanish….
Actually, the key City Presbyterian claims to possess doesn’t even fit the lock it purports to open. Truth be told, it’s not non-Anglos who want an egalitarian culture, but sophisticated urban Seinfeld wannabes who hate authority and want their pastor and church to confirm them in their errors and rebellion. Since it’s Denver we’re talking about, and not Detroit, it’s appropriate to observe that Latinos are actually much less sympathetic to women in public leadership than the sort of urban Anglos that City Presbyterian is most likely to be attracting. And we’re not talking about machismo, here, but the historic and quite-authentic Latino cultural commitment to father-rule. If City Presbyterian wants to contextualize, if she really wants to attract the dominant non-Anglo culture of Denver, she might well start by having Spanish-speaking blue-collar men in leadership—certainly not by hiring an Anglo woman minister and having her and other women lead worship, mixed sex Sunday school classes, and Community Groups.
Minorities and political liberals are noticeably absent. This is unfortunate, not only because a great many non-whites and political liberals need to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but also because there is a growing number of evangelical Christians who are politically moderate-to-liberal and are finding it increasingly difficult to find a church where they “fit.”
Bingo! We suspect the vast majority of PCA churches that trumpet their attractiveness to “non-anglos” actually attract rather few Latinos or African-Americans. Rather, they specialize in attracting the disaffected children of Evangelicalism who find mainline churches hopeless but reject the “pietism” of their childhood homes; young men and women who had their biblical faith attacked at college or the university who are looking for a church both their professors and their parents would approve of.
As to what is meant by “politically moderate-to-liberal,” we’re afraid to ask. Though we ourselves are not lock-step conservatives, we care very much about, for instance, the unborn. Do the “political liberals” filling City Presbyterian’s chairs care about the unborn? Do they know the name of the doctor in Boulder who has specialized for decades in late term abortions, killing viable children while they’re still in their mothers’ wombs—the man who has written America’s textbook on abortion procedures? (Check out drhern dot com.) And if they’re not particularly concerned, at first, because of their “liberal political commitments,” does the church lead them to care, in time?
What about sodomy? Do City Presbyterian’s converts and new disciples look askance at sodomite marriage? And if at first they don’t, are they led in time to do so because of their love for sodomites and for the Law of God?
We’re not prejudging the answers to these questions but the writer and his congregation should not simply be given a pass on this matter because, after all, we’re leery of tearing down the wall of separation between Christian faith and the public square…. Of course it’s true that we do not convert souls to the Republican Party. But when we are converted to Jesus Christ and to His Bride, should we not begin to care about matters such as these?
Though the majority of these people would consider themselves egalitarians, most of them are not particularly interested in fighting over women’s ordination so long as the gifts and calling of women are taken seriously in the church and women are given meaningful opportunities to use their spiritual gifts.
Who will define whether “the gifts and calling of women are taken seriously?” The egalitarians? That’s letting the fox into the hen house. If they are, in principle, opposed to the Scriptural doctrine of father-rule, why would they ever be satisfied with the manifestation of that Creation-order Divine rule in the church’s community life? After all, by the writer’s own admission the souls making the judgment are “egalitarian,” right?
It’s also telling to note how thoroughly the writer qualifies his assurance that these are not fighting liberals. He says “most” of them are not “particularly” interested in fighting over women’s ordination. “Most of them” leaves some of them, right? And not “particularly” interested still leaves somewhat interested, right?
Ultimately, one of three things is true:
First, it may be that City Presbyterian and its pastor have no doctrine of sexuality past the minimalist “don’t allow women to be preaching pastors or elders” followed by an increasing number of PCA elders and churches.
Second, it may be that City Presbyterian and its pastor do indeed hold to the biblical doctrine of sexuality and father-rule, but they view the order of the sexes as a non-essential of the Christian faith. Consequently, they think that bringing souls who reject this doctrine into their church is not significant for the future unity and wellbeing of the church or the homes under their care. And they have no heart for leading those souls deeper into the curative blessings of this doctrine.
Third, it may be that City Presbyterian and its pastor want to get those who reject Scripture’s teaching on the order of the sexes inside the door of their church so that, once they’re there, they can lead them into God’s Truth. It may be that the people of City Presbyterian are chomping at the bit to “teach” their converts “everything our Lord commanded us” and they’re waiting with great anticipation for the time when their marriages, families, and church will all finally be united in glorious witness in a matter where the world is in rebellion against God and is suffering terribly, due to that rebellion.
The third option seems highly unlikely. That leaves the first two, and both are serious departures from Scripture. It’s hard to imagine why any church would view adherence to such views as success.
Maybe this gets at the nub of it: To be converted to Jesus Christ necessarily means that a man will be converted to Father-rule—not simply that he will put up with attending and holding his membership in a narrow-minded church where female preaching pastors and elders are forbidden. But the converts at City Presbyterian are proudly paraded in front of us as committed and continuing egalitarians.
Thus it is often not the theology of the PCA but the culture of the PCA which causes many people outside the traditional PCA demographic to look elsewhere for a church home.
What the PCA holds to as “theology” and what is dismissed as her “culture” is the whole ball game. But if father-rule is just “culture,” why does the world hate it so perfectly?
It may be that City Presbyterian needs to focus on evangelism rather than attracting egalitarians “looking…for a church home.” New believers have the merit of not having been inoculated against the power of God’s Word by evangelicalism’s scribes and Pharisees, maybe they’re the ones it’s most productive to focus our ministry on.
Speaking from many years of experience in communities just as liberal, urbane, and sexually decadent as Denver, new believers are ready and willing to throw out their false doctrines when they come to Christ. It’s generally transfer members from evangelical and liberal churches who cling to the idol of egalitarianism. Bring into the church new Christians, male or female, and they embrace father-rule with joy—and not simply in the matter of who preaches to them or who serves as their elder. No, but with great enthusiasm they embrace God’s blessed order of the sexes across their entire lives, often joyfully sharing that truth with the lost with whom they formerly associated.
Perpetuating a "typical PCA culture" within more secular, urban contexts often brings about small, homogeneous churches largely made up of conservative Christians from other churches.
Well again, it depends upon what is meant by “homogeneity.” Since this entire paper argues for diversity of conviction concerning the egalitarian ideology, it’s clear that City Presbyterian defines the heterogeneity she seeks as having a congregation filled with souls who deny Scripture’s doctrine of father-rule.
And though it may be gauche to suggest, we suspect that City Presbyterian isn’t the largest metropolitan church in its presbytery, even if it is the most liberal. Nor has liberalism on gender issues proven an open-sesame to growth in other urban areas.
City Presbyterian Church: A Case Study
City Presbyterian (PCA) was planted in downtown Denver, CO in September 2001. It was a “scratch start” meaning there was no preexisting core group in place. From the outset City Presbyterian sought ways to reach its culture without compromising its Reformed theology and Presbyterian (PCA) polity. This presented a challenge, because the culture of downtown Denver is very politically and socially liberal (as are the vast majority of U.S. cities. ) An additional factor that makes Denver hostile to “conservative” religion is its close proximity to Colorado Springs, which is home to many of the leading organizations and ministries on the Religious Right such as Focus on the Family. (A bumper sticker once popular around Denver read “Focus on your own damn family!”) This creates a very polarized environment and generates an extraordinary amount of skepticism and cynicism toward any church that would adhere to orthodox, theologically conservative Christianity.
If this is hard, imagine how much harder it was for the Apostle Paul. Yet where does the Apostle Paul make such laments? Where does he soft-peddle father-rule (or any other biblical doctrine) for the sake of the Gospel?
In other words, the demographic of downtown Denver is not at all conducive to planting a typical PCA church. So the challenge City Presbyterian faced was how to reach out to a culture that would be inherently hostile toward its policy of not ordaining women as church officers.
Again, why place all the blame on the PCA’s “policy of not ordaining women as church officers?” The real scandal to Denver’s surrounding culture starts with the Cross. Once someone understands that following Jesus means losing his life, losing his egalitarianism is small potatoes.
The solution to this problem was found in making a proper distinction between our theology and our church culture. Our theology meant we would not ordain women as church officers.
Why “our theology” rather than “our obedience to God” or something similar? In other words, why isn’t it phrased this way: “Faithfulness to God and His Word require that we not ordain women as church officers”?
But the church culture at City Presbyterian prominently values the gifting and calling of women. The result has been a congregation that is very atypical of the PCA: roughly evenly split between political liberals and conservatives with a significant number of conversions…
Really? And how many of them are “non-Anglo?” And what does it mean that members in City Presbyterian are “political liberals?” That they are pro-abortion? That they are pro-sodomy? That they favor women serving in the military? In combat positions? Being drafted? And so on.
We can’t imagine bragging that our congregations are evenly split between political conservatives and liberals. Are the issues generally at stake in debates between political liberals and conservatives in the public square matters of indifference to biblically reformed Christians?
When a PCA pastor has a Democratic judge confess faith in Christ and begin to attend his church, when the pastor meets with him and explains the requirements of the Lordship of Jesus Christ over his life and specifically tells him he will have to honor the Lord over his party in matters of sexual ethics, sodomy, the unborn, the defective, the elderly, etc., is he wrong to do so? And has this judge been wrong to work since in a way that demonstrates growing submission to the Lord Jesus, and growing denial of the central tenets of political liberalism?
It’s Discipleship 101 that those who belong to Jesus will come under His Lordship, and that His Lordship will change everything in their lives—including their political commitments.
Of course this doesn’t mean they will become Republican, but it does mean, for instance, that they will begin to care about and defend the unborn.
And of course, note that City Presbyterian also “is very atypical of the PCA” because her “church culture… prominently values the gifting and calling of women.” This is the basis of her being “evenly split between political liberals and conservatives with a significant number of conversions…”
Yes, in other non-urban, non-contextualized, non self-reflective, non self-critical, non-engaged, homogenous, politically conservative, ordinary PCA churches led by fuddy, dowdy and benighted teaching elders, “the gifting and calling of women” are not “prominently value(d)” leaving most of the women of childbearing age barefoot and pregnant. Oh, of course… the writer didn’t actually say that, did he?
…particularly among those who come from either a “liberal” church background or no church background at all. Perhaps most surprising is that a majority of our members would likely consider themselves egalitarian in their views of women in church leadership!
We brag about this? Doesn’t every PCA teaching elder know that egalitarianism is the very antithesis of God’s creation order of the sexes as expounded by the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul in 1Timothy 2:
A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. (1 Timothy 2:11-15)
How can we read this and then brag about our church being filled with egalitarians?
If we bragged about our church being an entry point for egalitarians, and how all of those who have entered are then discipled into affirming father-rule and repenting of egalitarianism, that’s to be commended. That’s worth bragging about! But that is clearly not what’s being bragged about, here. Rather, it’s City Presbyterian’s great success in helping those with egalitarian commitments come into and stay within their church without having to give up their false ideology.
So why would they join a PCA church?
Some have assumed that City Presbyterian must be “cutting theological corners” or otherwise hiding our polity in regard to women’s ordination.
Note, it’s almost always a matter of “women’s ordination,” rather than the meaning and purpose of sexuality.
Actually, the opposite is true. Every member of our church is required to attend a six hour Introduction to City Presbyterian class before joining, at which time we go over the PCA’s polity and stance on women’s ordination. We also include in the class syllabus a theological paper by staff member Sara Bartley articulating and defending the complementarian position. There is no “bait and switch” – everyone who joins our church knows and understands where we stand on this issue.
The answer instead is found in the way we have structured our church life. First, we are careful to treat women as equals within the church, rather than merely assent to their equality.
The uncharitable implication is that any PCA church (not to mention the Church across the centuries of church history) which does not have women leading and teaching men in places other than the pulpit on Sunday morning does not “treat women as equals,” but merely “assent to their equality.”
Thus women are allowed to use their gifts in a number of ways, all of which are both biblical and permissible according to the PCA BCO, such as: reading scripture, offering prayers, assisting with ushering during worship services , helping teach adult Sunday School, leading Community Groups (small groups that meet during the week), serving on the Finance Team (which oversees the church budget), and assisting the pastoral staff in ministering to women in the congregation.
But, given the philosophy demonstrated in what’s been written above, why limit women in City Presbyterian to only “helping teach adult Sunday school?” To only “ministering to women in the congregation?” The real question is whether there’s anything about sexuality as God made it that would lead City Presbyterian to have men teach men in Sunday school; that would cause City Presbyterian to have men lead men in their Community Groups; that would cause City Presbyterian to have men assist the pastoral staff in ministering to men of the congregation?
And if City Presbyterian grants that this is the clear teaching of Scripture, then everything written above would have been written in a different way to communicate a different—indeed, a biblical—thrust.
So yes, there are many areas of church life in which women may exercise their gifts, including reading Scripture, praying, greeting, ushering, etc. But the true egalitarian won’t for one moment be content with being tossed such bones. Having women teach men in Sunday school may get close; and having women lead Community Groups may get even closer to stroking our resident egalitarians where they itch. But make no mistake about it: nothing will do until father-rule is dead in the home, church, and society.
In other words, unless a woman were to feel strongly called by God to be ordained as an elder (and the vast majority do not) she will not be denied a meaningful opportunity to use her gifts in the life of our church.
So an egalitarian woman who DOES “feel strongly called by God to be ordained as an elder” (and there are some who do feel this way, by the writer’s own admission) is being “denied a meaningful opportunity to use her gifts?” How else are we to read this sentence?
To relegate all the godly mothers-in-Israel through the centuries who have given themselves to the ministries of raising children, teaching other women, teaching children, praying, and washing the feet of the saints to the category of those “denied a meaningful opportunity to use (their) gifts in the life of (the) church” is a terrible insult to this work itself, as well as to those who did this work without complaining. In fact, insofar as these are the works that the Holy Spirit calls women to in the Word of God, to speak dismissively of them as “not meaningful” is an assault upon the Holy Spirit Himself Who constantly calls women to this summary of godly womanhood:
A widow is to be put on the list only if she is not less than sixty years old, having been the wife of one man, having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work. (1 Timothy 5:9, 10)So an egalitarian woman who DOES “feel strongly called by God to be ordained as an elder” (and there are some who do feel this way, by the writer’s own admission) is being “denied a meaningful opportunity to use her gifts?” How else are we to read what has been written above?
As a result of this we have seen a number of men and women with strong egalitarian convictions join our church, some of whom were also converted to Christ within City Presbyterian. Though they strongly disagree…
Note well the present tense, here. They are converted and they continue to have “strong egalitarian convictions.” It would be absurd for the writer to be using “egalitarian convictions” simply to refer to those who want women to preach and serve as ruling elders. Egalitarianism is much, much more. So why no mention of these souls coming to repent of their egalitarianism? Is this not part of the “If any man is in Christ, he’s a new creation” promise of the Holy Spirit? Or does the leadership of City Presbyterian lack the faith to believe such a tenacious cultural sin could ever be rooted out of the hearts of new converts?
…with the PCA’s stance on women’s ordination…
Again, why “the PCA’s stance on women’s ordination” rather than “the Biblical doctrine of father-rule?” Or even, “the Biblical doctrine of male teaching and ruling elders?” It’s always “the PCA this” and “the PCA that”—never “God has commanded this in His Word.”
…they have chosen to make City Presbyterian their church home because the culture of our church affirms their God-given spiritual gifts.
More likely because City Presbyterian doesn’t rub their noses in Scripture’s teaching concerning the meaning and purpose of sexuality—and particularly that central doctrine of the Garden of Eden, father-rule.
Female Staff at City Presbyterian
In keeping with our philosophy of ministry City Presbyterian made a strategic decision to hire a female staff member whose responsibilities go beyond the traditional assignments given to female staff within the PCA (such as administration, women’s & children’s ministry, etc.) In November 2004 we hired Sara Bartley, one of the first women to graduate from Covenant Theological Seminary (the official seminary of the PCA) with a Master of Divinity (M.Div.)
(Tell us again why the PCA’s only seminary grants women the professional degree universally recognized as the prerequisite for pastors/teaching elders?)
Her areas of responsibility include not only women’s & children’s ministry but also assimilation, discipleship, outreach/mercy ministry and teaching.
So does she teach and exercise authority over men, or doesn’t she? That’s the question, isn’t it? Let’s get to the point and frame the issue as the Holy Spirit frames it. In her position at City Pres., does Minister Bartley teach and exercise authority over men? Let’s deal with the principle God has given us rather than piddling our time away talking about being an usher and counting the money and making budgetary decisions. Does she or does she not teach and exercise authority over men? This is the Holy Spirit’s question.
Sara’s arrival greatly reassured many of the women (and men) in our congregation who were egalitarian and seeking evidence that women’s gifts and calling were indeed going to be taken seriously within our church.
There it is again—”taken seriously.” We look to people with anti-biblical egalitarian commitments for their judgment on whether women’s gifts are being “taken seriously.” “Have you stopped beating your wife yet, Mr. Brown?” and all that….
As we began to consider what job title to give Sara (obviously she was not going to be ordained as an Assistant or Associate Pastor) we realized we had a unique opportunity to reach out to our skeptical, liberal and egalitarian community by giving Sara a job title that was an accurate reflection of her responsibilities and was culturally appropriate to our context. Thus we gave her the title “Minister of Church Life.” This title is both commensurate with her education and an accurate reflection of her responsibilities which are serving/ministering and not “directing.”
What follows is simply a pile of legalistic nitpicking—very sad reading. We’ll hold ourselves to one final comment below.
The response to Sara’s title within our congregation was overwhelmingly positive. Those who considered themselves egalitarian saw this as evidence that we were “putting our money where out mouths were” and not treating Sara as a second-class staff member, even though she obviously was not going to be ordained. Furthermore, a number of women (and men) who were sitting on the fence about committing to our church made the decision to formally join. Also, visitors who were not from evangelical backgrounds reported that Sara’s title and position reassured them we were not a “narrow minded, fundamentalist church” despite being part of a conservative denomination. (One woman who was converted recently within our church reported that Sara’s position and role eliminated a significant barrier for her to the gospel.) In other words, we have effectively disarmed the women’s issue in our church, so much so in fact that no groups within the church are even discussing it, much less fighting over it.
It has been asked if giving the title “minister” to a female staff member is a violation of the PCA BCO. The answer is ‘no’ for two reasons. First, according to BCO 7-2 "The ordinary and perpetual classes of office in the Church are elders and deacons. Within the class of elder are the two orders of teaching elders and ruling elders." Sara is neither an elder nor a deacon; she has not been ordained to either office and is not seeking ordination. Other than as an employee of City Presbyterian she has no official standing within our Presbytery or the PCA.
Second, although the word “minister” (lower case ‘m’) is sometimes used in the BCO as a synonym for a Teaching Elder, basic exegetical principles teach us to never assume that a given word is always used with the same meaning in all places. The use of a word in context must determine its proper meaning. A prime example of this is found in Romans 16:1 where Phoebe (a Greek feminine name that clearly refers to a woman) is called a “diakonos of the church in Cenchrea.” This word may be translated as "servant", “deacon” or "minister." The only way to determine which meaning is implied is by studying the context of its usage. Which use did Paul intend? If we assume that Phoebe was not an ordained church officer, the question is really moot. Paul did not hesitate to call her a diakonos and it must have been abundantly clear in the context of her local church exactly what Paul meant when he used this title to draw attention to a woman who played a significant public role in the life of the Roman church.
Similarly it is clear in the context of City Presbyterian that we do not use the title “minister” to refer to Sara as an ordained teaching elder. Furthermore, on our staff directory (which is printed on the back page of every Sunday bulletin) the title “Rev.” is used only before the names of the ordained staff. Furthermore Sara does not preach, administer the sacraments, or perform any of the other functions that are the exclusive domain of the ordained staff. On any Sunday when an ordained staff member is not available to lead worship a substitute teaching elder is brought in to preach and administer the sacraments.
Another example of this may be found in churches across the PCA where non-ordained staff are given titles such as “Youth Minister” or “Worship Pastor”, etc. Similarly we have chosen a job title for Sara that accurately reflects her ministry, is culturally appropriate to our urban context and is consistent with the practice of the Apostle Paul himself in commending Phoebe’s ministry within the church at Rome by calling her a diakonos.
[For Further Consideration See the Appendix The Use of the Title “Minister” for Unordained Staff]
Acts 16:1-3 as the Paradigm for Appropriate Cultural Exegesis
The practice of giving a female staff member the title of “minister” is also in keeping with a cultural apologetic employed by Paul in regard to his disciple Timothy. Acts 16:1-3 reads:
“And he came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.”
Paul was a vehement opponent of the Judaizers, who were attempting to force Gentile Christians to undergo circumcision as necessary for their justification. Paul saw this for what it was – a violation of the gospel itself. Thus it must have seemed surprising to many of his contemporaries that he would have Timothy circumcised, for fear that many would misinterpret this act as compromising an important theological principle. Yet the passage makes clear that Paul was distinguishing between an unalterable theological principle and a ministry strategy. The principle was: circumcision is not necessary for justification. The strategy was: circumcise Timothy so he will be able to effectively minister to the Jews.
At City Presbyterian we are making a similar distinction between a principle and a strategy: we do not ordain women as church officers (principle) yet we give our women significant ministry opportunities within our congregation in other, appropriate venues (strategy.) Sara Bartley is not an ordained teaching elder (principle) yet she carries a job title that effectively enables her and our church to minister in a secular, skeptical, egalitarian context (strategy.)
Pastor Downing’s use of the Judaizing controversy and Timothy’s circumcision to justify winking at the errors of feminist egalitarians in his church—and specifically the promotion of a woman into a pastoral position where it seems evident that she will teach and exercise authority over men—is breathtakingly audacious. But we grow weary of responding and will stop with this comment….
The Apostle Paul spent his life and blood fighting against the Judaizing heresy, and he had the brand marks of Jesus to prove it (Galatians 6:17). Those today who compare themselves to the Apostle Paul, claiming his pastoral decision to have Timothy circumcised as justification for their own decisions to compromise, ought to be prepared to show themselves faithful in suffering for their opposition to that contemporary heresy.
So, for instance, if Pastor Downing is claiming to be making a pastoral judgment that it’s best to put a woman forward in leadership in his church, calling her “Minister” and having her involved in exercising authority over men in order ultimately to oppose the egalitarianism of his new converts, it would enhance his credibility if he could show some marks of suffering for Jesus in this battle.
This would make clear that, while this one compromise lines up on one side (and compromise is not always bad), the vast bulk of his ministry lines up in opposition to egalitarianism and every other sort of sexual anarchy.
Sadly, we have no such evidence. Rather, the evidence provided in this document is of a witness more like the witness of Peter in the Judaizing controversy; Peter who fearing man stood aloof from the Gentiles and moved his seat to the other side of the aisle. Paul rightly resisted Peter to his face for such “hypocrisy” (Galatians 2:11-13).
Questions and Concerns
Because the culture and ethos of City Presbyterian is quite different in regards to women than more traditional PCA churches, this invites a number of questions, some of which are answered below:
Q: Isn’t City Presbyterian’s more “egalitarian” church culture simply a result of “caving in” to cultural pressure?
A: No. We believe there is a distinction between being cultural sensitivity and cultural acquiescence. Our policies toward women are derived from our theology. Apart from the example cited in Acts 16:1-3, there are other occasions where the Apostle Paul appropriately adapted his ministry to be more culturally effective. See for example Acts 17 and how Paul changed his message and methodology when ministering to the religious Jews (verses 1-15) as distinct from the pagan Greeks (verses 17-32.) Note also the conversions that resulted from these adaptations (verse 34.) We have seen similar conversions within City Presbyterian as a result of employing Paul’s strategy of appropriate cultural adaptations.Q: Won’t people be confused by the title “Minister” given to a female staff member and think she is ordained?
A: Anyone who worships with us for any length of time quickly learns she is not, and they observe that she does not preach or administer the sacraments. Furthermore, anyone wishing to join our church must complete a membership class where we carefully review our denomination’s polity in regards to women’s ordination.Q: Is allowing women to teach adult men a violation of 1 Timothy 2:11-15?
A: It is not within the scope of this paper to outline an extended exegesis of this passage. However, it is an accepted practice in PCA churches and Presbyteries across the denomination to allow women to teach men, so long as they do not do in an “authoritative manner” (i.e. preaching) and do so with the oversight and approval of the Elders.Q: Won’t people who move to Denver from more traditional PCA churches be offended by giving a female staff member the title of “Minister” and the unusual amount of latitude you allow women in your church?
A: We have a number of members who have transferred to City Presbyterian from other parts of the country and were members of more culturally conservative PCA churches. Once they understand that we do not ordain women to church office they generally have no problem with our choice of job titles or the very public role women play in our worship services. Indeed, more often than not the reaction is the opposite: they are encouraged to find a PCA church that takes seriously the gifts and calling of women and does not confine their ministry to the WIC or nursery. In the rare event they are unable to accept our practices there are five more traditional PCA churches in our area and a number of other more conservative Reformed churches which they may attend.Q: Even if it is constitutionally allowable, is it wise to get so close to the “edge”? Wouldn’t it be easier to change her title to “Director” or something else?
A: In most PCA churches it would probably be very unwise to give the title “minister” to a woman, such a move would cause unnecessary consternation and offense. At City Presbyterian, in its particular context, it has proven to be extremely wise and useful. The congregation has reacted in an overwhelmingly positive manner to this, and many who would normally never darken the door of a PCA church have ended up joining, some of whom have joined after becoming Christians. Moreover, a title such as “Director” carries a “top-down”, corporate connotation which we feel would be out of place in our church context. We strive to teach our congregation that our church is a family where all members serve alongside one another, as opposed to an organization where the leaders function as employers. Ironically, one of the reasons we chose “Minister” for Sara’s title is that it is a much less authoritative-sounding title than “Director”. We have never intended to give our congregants the impression that Sara is “in charge of” anyone.Conclusion
The New Testament shows us that Jesus was deeply concerned for the plight of those who were marginalized by the religious culture of his day (the poor, lepers, tax collectors, “sinners”, Samaritans, and women.) He went out of his way to minister to these groups at great personal cost to his reputation. The Gospels teach us that Jesus has a heart for political liberals, for feminists, and others who often feel ostracized by the evangelical church. And so must we. At City Presbyterian we are attempting to carry out the Great Commission in our context by exegeting our culture and finding ways to communicate the gospel with both integrity and cultural sensitivity. By God’s grace these efforts have borne much fruit, and many have been converted and joined our church that otherwise would never have imagined themselves being part of a traditional, evangelical church.
If the PCA as a whole is going to see similar results it must learn to develop effective, theologically accurate and culturally accessible ministries to an increasingly egalitarian culture. To do this it must learn to distinguish between principle and strategy, finding ways to work within its polity to create opportunities for women to use their spiritual gifts in meaningful ways. If it does not, it may miss an important and strategic opportunity to reach out beyond its traditional demographic to the emerging generation of men and women whose core values include taking seriously God’s word as well as God’s gifting and calling to women in the church.
APPENDIX: The Use of the Title “Minister” for Unordained Staff in the PCA
Introduction
In November 2004 City Presbyterian Church in downtown Denver, CO hired onto their staff one of the few women to graduate from Covenant Theological Seminary with a Masters of Divinity (M.Div.) degree. She was given the job title Minister of Church Life. Although it is a fairly common practice around the PCA to allot the title minister to non-ordained staff (for example, many PCA churches have non-ordained “Youth Ministers” or “Music Ministers”) it is a rare occurrence to give the title Minister to an unordained female. This raises two key questions which this paper will attempt to answer:
1. Is it a violation of the PCA Book of Church Order (BCO) for one of its churches to give an unordained staff member (regardless of gender) the title “minister”?
2. Is giving the title “minister” to an unordained female the first step onto a “slippery slope” that might lead to an erosion of the PCA’s doctrine that only males may be ordained as church officers?
Question 1: Is it a violation of the PCA Book of Church Order (BCO) for one of its churches to give an unordained staff member (regardless of gender) the title “minister”?
Titles of Church Offices in the BCO
It is important to point out that absolutely nowhere in the BCO does it state that the title “minister” may only be used for ordained elders. Thus the only way to reach that conclusion is via inference. However, examination of the BCO does not support that inference. First, the BCO lists two types of church officers. These are found in Chapter 7, Church Officers – General Classification: (7-2)"The ordinary and perpetual classes of office in the Church are elders and deacons. Within the class of elder are the two orders of teaching elders and ruling elders." 7-2 then goes on the clarify the office of teaching elder: “Only those elders who are specially gifted, called and trained by God to preach may serve as teaching elders.” It is interesting to note that “Minister” is not a term used to delineate an official title of office. This may be seen at both Presbytery and General Assembly for example, when Presbyters are asked to identify themselves as either “teaching elder” or “ruling elder” when they register as delegates.
Second, within the office of teaching elder, the BCO further delineates between three classifications of teaching elder. These are found in BCO 22-1: “The various pastoral relations are pastor, associate pastor, and assistant pastor.” Again, it is interesting to note that the word “minister” is not used as an official title of office, but rather the word “pastor.” [It is important to note at this juncture that only the ordained staff at City Presbyterian carry the title of pastor.)
The Use of the Word Minister in the BCO: Title vs. Synonym
There are numerous examples throughout the BCO of the word “minister” being used in relation to the office of teaching elder. Among the many examples that could be cited, the following will suffice to illustrate the point: “Every church should be under the pastoral oversight of a minister, and when a church has no pastor it should seek to secure one without delay.”(20-2) “Process against a minister shall be entered before the Presbytery of which he is a member.”(34-1) However, no where in the BCO is “minister” a title of office, but rather is used as a synonym for a teaching elder, not a title.
Indeed, when the BCO seems to be thinking about the various titles used for a teaching elder, there is a noticeable absence of the word “minister.” In chapter 8, The Elder: “This office is one of dignity and usefulness. The man who fills it has in Scripture different titles expressive of his various duties. As he has the oversight of the flock of Christ, he is termed bishop or pastor. As it is his duty to be grave and prudent, as an example to the flock, and to govern well in the house and Kingdom of Christ, he is termed presbyter or elder” and etc. (Italics are part of the original text.) Indeed, Chapter 8 goes on to use the following the following terms for a teaching elder, all of which are italicized in the text for emphasis: teacher, ambassador, evangelist preacher, and steward.
Not once does it use the word “minister” which is too broad of a synonym to describe the specifics of the office of teaching elder. A good analogy of the broad use of minister is the use of the word “soldier” which can refer equally to enlisted personnel and to officers. To call a general a soldier is not to deny that he is an officer, anymore than to call a private a soldier is to imply he is an officer. In this example, context must determine meaning. This is a standard exegetical practice in any context, including the bible.
Biblical Examples of the Use of “Minister” for Unordained Church “Staff”
In Romans 16:1 the apostle Paul publicly honors in his letter a woman named Phoebe. Though she is never identified as an employee of the church or a church officer virtually all commentators agree that she played a prominent role in the life of the Church at Rome, one which might indeed be analogous to church “staff” (paid or volunteer.) Paul calls her a “diakonos” of the church. In the noun form this word is translated into English as: "servant", “deacon” or "minister.” Translators differ as to which noun is employed. For example, in translating Acts 16:1 the NAS uses “servant”, the NRSV uses “deacon” and the NAB uses “minister.” Paul later uses this same word to describe himself in Colossians 1:25, “Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God…” It is only by looking at the word in its immediate context as well as in the larger context of the bible that one may ascertain whether Phoebe, like Paul, was an ordained minister or merely an unordained lay minister. But in either case Paul uses the same word. He expects his readers to understand from the context what diakonos means in each use. (This why extreme caution is called for when using a narrative passage like Romans 16:1 to determine doctrine, such as the issue of women’s ordination.) In the context of a PCA church it is obvious from the context that a female “minister” is not an ordained teaching elder. (And this is certainly the case within City Presbyterian, where it is commonly known throughout the church that its female Minister of Church Life is not ordained.)
Furthermore, the semantic range of “minister” goes beyond its use as a title both in Scripture and in common contemporary usage. As a verb, “minister” is often used to describe the service of non-elders in the New Testament. Those who minister include women (Mt. 27:55; Mk. 15:40-41), government authorities (Rom 13:6) and angels (Mt. 4:11; Mk. 1:13; Heb. 1:14), as well as elders (Acts 20:34). The act of ministry is clearly expected of all believers, as Jesus himself warns that one of the indicators of a person’s genuine salvation will be his/her ministry to others (Mt. 25: 31-46). Paul writes that it is the responsibility of “the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ”. (Eph 4:11-12, emphasis added)
Churches and para-church organizations today use the words “minister” and “ministry” to describe nearly all of the work that is done by Christian individuals, groups and institutions. It is semantically incongruent to say that a person “does youth ministry” but cannot be called a “Youth Minister”, or that a person is the “Director of Women’s Ministry” who “ministers to women” but cannot be called a “Minister to Women”.
I conclude that “minister” and its variants do not necessarily denote the title or work of teaching elders alone, but are commonly understood to refer to Christian service in general, by all believers. It is not harmful or confusing for the PCA to use the term as liberally as God himself does in his Word, and as other Christians and Christian institutions do to this day.
Summary
Nowhere in the BCO is there an injunction that forbids using the title of “minister” for any but ordained staff. To infer this is to stretch the book far beyond its intent. What is clear is that it uses the word “minister” as a synonym for teaching elders. What is equally clear is that it does not assign the word “minister” as an official title of office for teaching elders, nor does it reserve the use of the word exclusively for teaching elders, nor does not it forbid the broader use of the word for other unordained staff. Such additional conclusions can only be reached through eisegesis. The Apostle Paul used the word “minister” in Scripture as a descriptive to refer to both men and women. Furthermore, it is a common practice within the PCA (as well as many other evangelical denominations that do not ordain women) to refer to unordained staff, including women, as “ministers.”
Question 2: Is giving the title “minister” to an unordained female the first step onto a “slippery slope” that might lead to an erosion of the PCA’s doctrine that only males may be ordained as church officers?
On the one hand this question is very understandable. There is a wide and growing concern within the PCA that its doctrinal standards concerning women’s ordination are being eroded, in part because the surrounding culture has become increasingly egalitarian and in part because many Reformed denominations have become egalitarian.
But on the other hand the question itself reveals a certain bias, namely “That which even appears to be a softening of the standards must necessarily be wrong.” The a priori assumption behind this question is analogous to the logic of Prohibition: because alcohol can become a “slippery slope” that leads some into addiction all alcoholic beverages should be made illegal for everyone. The slippery slope argument itself becomes a “slippery slope” which may in the end perpetuate a culture of fear where anything not immediately deemed “safe” is viewed with automatic suspicion and censure. The result of promulgating such a culture would be to stifle good and appropriate cultural exegesis that will hinder the PCA from employing appropriate creative strategies to more effectively communicate the gospel in an increasingly post-Christian, egalitarian culture.
A more appropriate question would be, “Are there adequate ‘firewalls’ in place to prevent the erosion of PCA polity on the women’s issue?” The answer is an unequivocal ‘yes’. The BCO is quite clear that only gifted and called men may be ordained as church officers. A vigilante approach of hunting down anything that doesn’t look complementarian is not helpful. Furthermore, the question must be asked: how many titles beyond what the BCO already uses (“Teaching Elder” and “Pastor”) must be “reserved” for the exclusive use of ordained clergy?
Should the PCA as a whole, or individual Presbyteries singly seek to formally restrict the use of the title “minister” to only ordained clergy this will effect numerous churches throughout the denomination that routinely allot this title to staff performing a variety of ministry functions.




Comments
I have been a Christian about as long as I have been married - 30 years. Just as I sadly do not consider myself a scholar when it comes to my own marriage, I do not think of myself a scholar when it comes to issues like this. Yet, I have a great appreciation for those, who out of a sincere love for Jesus and staggering gratitude for what he has done, want to defend and preserve the precious truth of his gospel.
Some, in all fairness and in the pursuit of truth, have taken issue with Sam Downing on this matter. But there are others who have moved beyond the pale of fairness, decency and truthfulness. I am concerned about the judgment of this person and his ministry based on this issue, alone.
Rather than attempting to speak to the issue at hand, I am jumping in ask if you think it is fair to disparage a man and his ministry based solely on the issue at hand?
The following reference to S.Johnson's comment is an example of the disparaging dialogue I am addressing: "The only concern for the lost that Dowling shows in this paper is that they realize what a swell guy he is and that he doesn't really take the Bible all that seriously. As Tim and David have adeptly pointed out, the Cross is wholly absent from his vision for the unsaved (judging from this paper, at least). It's one thing to attract a diverse group of liberal-minded people to your building on Sunday morning; it's quite another to show them how they must be born again." (That’s quite a conclusion!)
First, an editing note: S. Johnson misspelled the pastor's name above. While this may be attributed to an innocent typo, the lack of attention to this, along with his comment which I have pasted above, give reason to question if his response to the pastor's letter is truthful, appropriate, and considerate or merely another academic exercise.
As a critic myself, I know there are times when we who appear to be defending something we love are, in personal experience, distant from the grace of the gospel. Engaging in the exercise of the mind may satisfy our own intellectual appetite for bolstering our self worth, but it can be, and too often is at the expense of others. Stone throwing is too often a serious flaw that dismisses the value of and respect for others.
S. Johnson mentioned that "as Tim and David have adeptly pointed out, the Cross is wholly absent from his vision for the unsaved (judging from this paper, at least)." While you may disagree with the pastor on this particular issue, it is going a bit far to extrapolate that the cross is absent from his message or that he does not preach the necessity of being born again, as you have stated.
I wonder for those who have rightly or wrongly critiqued the issue at hand and concluded that Sam Downing and his ministry are seriously off track: Have you sat under the preaching at City Pres or walked among the people who know Jesus? Have you heard their testimonies? Are you familiar with their ministries including their gospel empowered life changing ministry to prostitutes? Would you truthfully find that “the Cross is wholly absent from his vision for the unsaved”?
My wife and I have had the privilege of getting to know Sam and his wife over the past years both in our home and at church. The reason we count it a privilege to attend City Pres whenever we are in town is primarily because of the anticipated focus of its Gospel-centered liturgy …start to finish. The pastor's message never fails to cut to the heart of the human condition and the necessity and power of the gospel to change us. Rather than coming away critical or disengaged, we leave discussing our time there and grateful for the message of the gospel that once again cut our hearts and informed us of the grace of God in Jesus.
I know of Ben and Jerry. I know that they know and love ice cream. I don't know who Tim and David or S. Johnson are. I don’t know if they speak out of a sincere love for the Person they represent. I really don’t know.
What I do know is that the Sam “Dowling” you have derided in absence of facts is not the Sam “Downing” we personally know. The Downing we know has a deep love for Jesus and His gospel that is evident in Sam’s life, message and ministry. We know of what we speak. Do you? Are you that narrow that you would disparage a brother who stands next to you in the gospel only by grace the grace of God?
As for S. Johnson’s comment that the pastor is looking to be seen as a swell guy: Don't we all? We do consider Sam to be a swell guy. One of the reasons for that is because he preaches the gospel to himself and the church God has entrusted to him.
Blair K.
Uh, Blair, you said, "First, an editing note: S. Johnson misspelled the pastor's name above. While this may be attributed to an innocent typo, the lack of attention to this, along with his comment which I have pasted above, give reason to question if his response to the pastor's letter is truthful, appropriate, and considerate or merely another academic exercise."
Pardon me, but the church's misspelling of "memebers" at the bottom of their web page exhibits a lack of attention to detail and this, along with the evidence of the church leadership's lack of attention to the teaching of the church (whole, universal, catholic and orthodox) for 2000 years give me reason to question whether Downing's version of the Gospel is truthful or merely another exercise in cultural accomodation.
I'll leave you with two quotes from Tim and Dave as above, in case you missed them,
"The errors and rebellion of the world have always been our greatest opportunities to preach the Gospel. Yet this writer implies that the feminist rebellion renders the Gospel impotent, creating such a crisis of legitimacy in the eyes of the world that we must hide the biblical truth about sexuality—or even leave it behind."
and
"The truth is that the biblical doctrines of sexuality are fantastic opportunities for evangelism today precisely because the world hates them. These doctrines are the gap in the wall where our culture has been focusing its attack upon God for decades: abortion, fornication, adultery, divorce, father-rule, women in combat, marriage, etc. Do we really believe capitulation in these areas will win an honest hearing for the Gospel? And if so, will our capitulation be limited to the biblical doctrine of father-rule, or will we accommodate over and over again until every sin of our nation is exempt from scrutiny by a “culturally appropriate” Church"
Kamilla
(yes, it is with a "K")
Yikes, David. Sorry about my faux pas!
Kamilla
Blair K.,
The comment you're talking about was written by me, not by S. Johnson. And yes, I mistakenly spelled Downing's name wrong. I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have, and there's no way to edit comments after they're posted.
Anyway. I'm not free to respond at length to your comment right now, but I'll do so ASAP.
Blair K;
I am sure there are some things of agreement with the man, but this issue he's wrong and against scripture and others in the PCA have tried to correct and reprove him PRIOR to this blog. When leaders err, they have to be corrected just like everyone else.
In America today, the apostle Paul would be hung out to dry for confronting the Apostle Peter on his hypocrisy over the gentiles when Paul confronted him publicly to his face.
Was Peter not the leader of the church in Jerusalem when he was rebuked? Think Paul thought Peter needed no accountability?
Again, here we have today in the climate of American evangelicalism, any correction and reproof of a leader, or anyone in the Church for that matter, is twisted to be seen as "disparaging." The same comments are always made, "he is a leader," "he has a heart for the lost," "he has done x, y, and z." "He's a Christian..." Yes, to be a Christian, and a Christian leader in America today, evidently EXCLUDES one from any accountability at all. You can even openly defy those over you in the Presbytery.
If a Christian leader is right about a, and b, but is unscriptural on "c," means nothing, apparently, to evangelicals. All it means is we can never confront someone on "c" because he is right on a & b. What rubbish. Because a believer has a ministry, they are apparently beyond correction. How absurd and completely unscriptural but that is continually the message received when anyone is rebuked. It also does no good for the brother to have no iron to be sharpened by!
But such is the theraputic, non-discerning, shallow age we live.
Leaders need MORE accountability; not less! They have souls under their care and instruction. He is wrong on this issue and was rightly taken to the mat for it.
About Pat's question concerning Reformed churches "always reforming."
I don't know who said that, and it has a nice ring to it, but it's not Scripture, and it is no longer necessary.
Why no longer necessary? Because we now have in place so many different Reformed denominations that you can easily change denominations instead of changing the denomination you are in.
If you like the idea of lady officers, the EPC is there for you. If you like Arminian Presbyterianism, you can go to the Cumberland PC. And so on. So, let's quit trying the change the PCA. If you don't agree with the BOCO, yes, please just graciously transfer to the denomination that suits you. That way we can all recognize our distinctives, but we can all happily get along, too.
I know this discussion has gone in a different direction (and i must say that, while i agree, for the most part with the Baylys' criticism of egalitarianism, i still affirm the Scriptural validity of women taking prominent roles in the Church, even the Church particularly choosing deaconesses [which the Church Catholic has, at one time, affirmed in doctrine and practice], so i can see both sides of this thing). However, my problem here is that the PCA has a very un-Presbyterian understanding of Church offices to begin with. If the PCA hadn't started with this problem, perhaps this issue wouldn't be so problematic in a place like Rocky Mountain Presbytery.
The radical two-office view of the majority of the PCA is its own kind of egalitarianism. The idea that all elders have to have the same authority or only to be distinguished by function is not only impractical, it is unhistorical, and unbiblical. This whole "TE" and "RE" junk is a symptom of the problem. Historically in Presbyterianism in Scotland and America and throughout the world, the word "minister" *HAS* been understood as the office of an ordained minister (complete with the use of "Reverend"), and the title of "elder" (though it was applicable to ministers as well) was particularly used for those lay elders elected from the congregation to represent them on the local session. This is why, even today in the PCA, ministers are *NOT* members of the congregation, whereas elders *ARE*. But this phenomenon is just a throw-back to the older ecclesiology, and not a consistent out-working of the PCA view of the Church offices. This inconsistent ecclesiology has been around for some time--since the Plan of Union between the Presbyterians in the United States and the Congregationalists of New England in 1801. The Southern Presbyterian Church (where the PCA came from) was almost completely New School in composition (which kept relations with the Congregationalists much longer than the Old School GA did), thus they were much more open to those kinds of hybridized ecclesiastical compositions and "new measures" of all kinds.
Recently, i purchased a copy of the Book of Order for the Presbyterian Church from the 1830s, just before the Old School/New School split of 1837/8. One of the interesting features of the whole thing was its almost universal reference to pastors (and only pastors) as "bishops" of particular congregations. Pastors were bishops, and elders were elders. Both sat in deliberations at Presbytery, Synod, and General Assembly, but pastors were members of the presbytery, and elders were members of the congregations. They both had equal voice and equal vote, but there was clearly a distinction in office and status between ministers and elders.
What i'm saying in all this stuff is simply that this debate is part of a larger issue that is taken for granted in the PCA and has been for decades in Southern Presbyterian life. It shouldn't surprise PCAs that there are churches and ministers in the PCA who have continued that New School attempt to expand and implement "new measures," even in Church offices. At the same time, though, PCAs with Old School sensibilities should be willing to correct ecclesiastical deviations that have caused such confusion in PCA life to begin with. The so-called "two-and-a-half" office compromise is as ridiculous as it is incoherent, and correcting it would do alot to correcting craziness such as put women, not only in service positions in the Church, but (the real problem from where i stand) leadership roles that place them in authority over men.
Marshall said: "About Pat's question concerning Reformed churches 'always reforming.'
"I don't know who said that, and it has a nice ring to it, but it's not Scripture, and it is no longer necessary."
Pastor TA:
I'm glad to know that we've reached the goal of faith and need not think of reforming anything that we do or believe any longer. Whew! What a relief!
BTW, when was it we reached perfection such that we not consider changing anything we do to be more in line with Scripture (i.e., "reforming")?
Dear Pastor Austin,
We're agreed on women deaconesses, but it's not the agreement of the women deacon movement in the PCA. The deaconesses of the Early Church bore little to no resemblance to the interchangeability of men and women in the office of deacon that churches like East Lanier Community Church (PCA) are promoting. Female deacons of the Early Church had entirely different responsibilities than male deacons, none of which put them in authority over men.
At this point, it appears likely any movement in the PCA to approve deaconesses will be one more step in the direction of the compromise with culture documented above.
When people say they're for women deacons, they need to be asked whether they believe that women should hold the same office held by men and whether they anticipate women in this office exercising authority over men. If they answer anything other than “no" to either question, one of two things is likely. They may not understand the difference between women and men sharing the office of deacon and women serving in the Early Church function of deaconess, in which case they need to have the distinction explained to them so they won't aid and abet the cultural rot in our midst. On the other hand, they may understand the difference and be promoters of that rot. Then men in their presbyteries need to quit themselves like men and guard the good deposit. Souls are at stake.
On your suggestion that the Old/New School controversy is the “larger issue” here, I think not. Although I’m entirely sympathetic to your unease with the TE/RE shibboleth among us (and for most of the reasons you’ve given), the background to women ministers and deacons in our midst goes much deeper than this historical controversy.
In “Heresies,” Joe (Harold O. J.) Brown points out that each century or two a new heresy comes forward that the church must oppose. Today, we have a systematic attack on God’s Fatherhood writ large over all His creation and rehearsing or returning to fight old battles won’t do the trick. Look through the major areas of systematic theology and see where God’s archetypal Fatherhood is being opposed. We have gender-neutered Bible translations; opposition to the economic subordination of the Son to the Father; denial of federal headship in the imputation of Adam’s sin; opposition to (really) all authority in the church, but certainly male authority; denunciation of biblical fatherhood in the marriage and home; covenant children born men casting off their manhood to be catamites; covenant children born women going off to Iraq to serve as combatants for their country; women of the church refusing to bear children because of their commitment to their career; men of the church refusing to guard the good deposit lest they appear ungraceful… The list could go on at length.
Sure, this wickedness is related to other, earlier historic errors, including the New/Old School controversy. But at its heart, it’s much, much larger. It’s the attack of Satan and his minions on the Fatherhood of God—that’s ground zero.
Egalitarian feminism is heresy and it must be opposed with boldness and courage by those men set apart by the laying on of hands and the Holy Spirit to guard the flock which Christ bought with His Own blood.
The lack of manly opposition we have suffered so far, particularly within the PCA, itself proves the point. Shepherds of God’s flock have been emasculated by their pastors, seminaries, presbyteries, wives, and sessions, and so have settled into a non-controversial role as a church chaplain who knows better than to contend for the Faith.
The present controversy starts with God the Father Whose perfections all exist in perfect harmony, eternally: His mercy and His justice, His love and His immutability, His grace and His holiness. The present heresy is an attempt to change God into a grandfather, or even a mother, softening the Household of Faith by importing a poison even more lethal than Roman Catholicism’s Mariolatry.
Where is the man who loves his sheep enough to expose and kill this wolf? Who is on the Lord’s side?
Jeffrey:
I agree "Leaders need MORE accountability; not less! They have souls under their care and instruction." Absolutely. And, from what I understand, Sam Downing has been accountable to those above him. He has responded to an accusation, written a requested defense, addressed the issue in meetings with those he is accountable to and they have made a favorable decision. I believe he has submitted on all accounts.
"He is wrong on this issue and was rightly taken to the mat for it." "Others in the PCA have tried to correct and reprove him PRIOR to this blog"
When you say others have tried to correct and reprove him, are you referring to those who oppose his position? Because, just as there are those who oppose him, there are others who find his position Biblically acceptable and support him. Furthermore, the majority of those in the RMP who he has been accountable to stand by his position.
At this point, I am addressing those who not only oppose Sam Downing's position but have gone to make unjustifiable assumptions such as:
City Pres attracts a liberal minded audience.
(On the contrary)
He doesn't care for the lost. (Based on what knowledge? City Pres has taken on a very difficult task of inner city evangelism. Among those is a challenging gospel centered ministry to prostitutes, Street’s Hope. It isn't fair to assign generalizations when disagreeing.
He is sn't preaching the gospel and the cross is "wholly absent from his vision, based on his paper".(So, is that true? Have you listened to his thinking about the gospel or sat under his preaching? We thank God that the entire worship service at City Pres is Gospel centered) I would encourage you to speak with him directly or better yet, take time to visit and meet him.
They've managed to hire an all white staff. (For several reasons, it's not worth addressing)
Assigning unwarranted comments like these to validate a viewpoint and persuade an audience is popular in political circles, but how is it justified in the church? Can the issue at hand be passionately defended without assigning further innuendos and judgments which may not only be prideful but detrimental to a man and his ministry and to the cause of Christ?
As I mentioned before, I have amazingly been married thirty years. I have caused the most damage to my relationship with my dear wife with unwarranted and unjustified remarks. Thankfully, she holds me accountable. I think it becomes easier to depersonalize someone when we are passionately engaged on a blog and are unaccountable for the things we say rather than doing the hard work of respectfully checking things out.
This is my first blogging experience. I’m not sure I want to become a blogger for Jesus.
[Downing:] ...there is much more latitude in regard to the role of women in the church beyond the traditional ministries women are given access to, such as keeping the nursery...
City Presbyterian's web page further down shows how little they know of women's roles: staff members Jill Cleveland, Erin Breed, and Shannon Hennebry all have "nursery" spelled wrong next to their names! ["Nursury"] http://www.citypres.org/contact.htm
> [Baylys:] When a PCA pastor has a Democratic judge confess faith in Christ and begin to attend his church, when the pastor... specifically tells him he will have to honor the Lord over his party in matters of sexual ethics, sodomy, the unborn, the defective, the elderly, etc., is he wrong to do so?
No. Even the Pope knows that. But today we are not to judge judges (or anyone), especially by traditional standards, which will offend so many people we are trying to reach.
> [Downing:] ...The result has been a congregation that is very atypical of the PCA: roughly evenly split between political liberals and conservatives
The church can't be half "conservatives," as conservatives wouldn't sit under such overt feminism! Birds of a feather will flock together -- they wish to minister to feminists, and that is who they will draw. For a PCA church, they can't believe much about the sovereignty of God, or else they wouldn't kick so strongly against the Lord's clear doctrines regarding manhood and womanhood.
> [Baylys:] So does she teach and exercise authority over men, or doesn’t she?
Oh my! She looks still wet behind the ears for a Minister of Church Life, whatever that is. (Maybe it is a glorified Events Planner?) The men're probably safe -- few churches exercise authority over anyone these days.
It is very distressing to see where minimalist complementarian accomodation will lead. "Hey, she's not ordained or preaching!"
--Michael McMillan
Guys, I'm deeply concerned by what I'm reading on this page, but maybe not in the ways you might expect. As a longtime blogger (and now PCA church planter), let me offer a couple of thoughts and suggestions...
1. We need more dialog, not less. And we need to do a much better job of learning how to really listen to (and hear) people we disagree with, in order that we can represent them well to others.
If I fail to do that, I will fail to win anyone to my position (even if I'm right).
If I can't listen well to others, I shouldn't be surprised when they don't listen well to me.
I'm concerned that you haven't really listened to Sam, and that you're not really helping others to listen to him either.
2. In the future, I'd encourage you to post a link to article's like these in their entireity, and to encourage people to read those first, on their own and not piecemeal.
I think you do injustice to the work you are critiquing when you intersperse rolling commentary on the whole, rather than allowing his (or her) work to stand on its own terms and be evaluated as such.
In other words, if you care about representing your opponent well, encourage your readers to do the hard work of reading the opponent on his own first, without your commentary.
I'll bet most of the people reading this blog have NOT gone and read Sam's article first, and that's a shame, because it means the first contact they get with Sam's ideas will necessarily be mediated through your critique.
Ad fontis. To the sources. At least give people a link, and then tell them what you think separately.
3. I'm even more concerned at the innuendo and aspersions throughout. For example:
- "Use of the word ‘gender’ is significant here."
- "One would assume the writer disagrees..."
- "Does it grieve the writer's heart..."
Is the use of gender significant here? Does the writer disagree? Does it grieve his heart?
The authors of this post don't know, but by stating these things the way they have, it seems to me they invite the reader to assume the worst along with them.
I have a hard time with this.
If you don't know, don't write it. Pick up the phone and ask him. Better yet, buy yourself a plane ticket and go visit him, in person. Talk to Sam. Talk to Sarah. Meet the people they are interacting with. Seek to understand the decisions they are making in the context they are operating. Surely your brothers and sisters in Christ are worth the price of a plane ticket?
Instead, what we have here is really just a public conversation ABOUT someone, where we ourselves do not really know that person first. And I don't think it sufficient to simply clue Sam in on the conversation and invite him to respond (I assume that problably happened). I think you still have an obligation to go to him first, to really seek to understand, in order to represent him in the best possible light (whether you ever end up disagreeing or not).
Only then (IMO) do you really have the right to write something like this publically.
I do not know Sam well, but I know him well enough to find the tone of this article completely out of touch with his character. The Sam I hear described here is a psuedo-Sam, not the real-Sam. And that makes me much less sympathetic to the authors' arguments, regardless of whether they are right. But maybe I'm just postmodern...
(NOTE: even as I write this critique, I feel convicted that I am probably guilty of this very same thing on my own blog. So to those of you who might want to go searching my own blog to say 'see, you do the same thing!' I offer this in advance - I agree, and I repent. If you see someplace where you feel I have misrepresented someone, please bring it to my attention so I can apologize publically)
4. I'd encourage everyone who enjoys these blogging forums to make a point of stepping away from the keyboard a couple of times a week to walk down to your local coffee shop, pub, or sportsbar. Start building relationships with unbelievers, not to change them, but rather to better understand them - how they think, where they're coming from, and most importantly, what they're hearing from us.
If I do not have unbelieving friends, perhaps I should reserve judgment on how someone like Sam is seeking to contextualize the gospel to unbelievers around him?
5. Fifth and finally, perhaps we'd all do well to ask ourselves a key question from time to time - ultimately, am I putting my confidence in Christ alone, or am I also banking on my own "rightness" (in theology, in experience, in practice, whatever)?
I for one am far too stupid (and sinful) to ever assume that I won't make mistakes in what I believe. But I trust Christ can cover those as well. And that leads me to be a little more sympathetic with others who might think differently with me on some things, because I believe God can cover them as well.
That doesn't mean I will necessarily be in the same church or denomination as them, but it certainly has helped me feel less threatened when one of my own sacred cows is threatened.
Brothers, please comment on Pastor Downing's statements and my brother's and my responses to those statements. This is a theological exchange with specific matters of biblical doctrine at its heart. Let's focus on those biblical doctrines and their implications for pastoral ministry here.
Also, please identify yourself with a real name and E-mail address.
Thanks.
Christian,
The Baylys believe that Sam Downing, a pastor of a church within their denomination, is in serious error. It is also clear that the Baylys believe that these errors of his put souls in jeopardy.
Why, then, do you (and many others in this comment section) spend your entire time focusing on their methods, rather than speaking to the issue at hand? Not a single thing you stated in your rather lengthy comment has anything to do with the issue at hand:
1. The way you demonstrate whether or not the Baylys have listened carefully to Sam is to respond to their accusations, not by complaining that they haven't listened to him. If you had done that, then I could be writing a post right now either agreeing or disagreeing with you, and we could be in the midst of a debate. Instead, we're just quibbling about how the message was delivered.
2. Sure, a link to the original article would have been a good idea. Fine.
3. As far as I can tell, the Baylys put up this post for the exact purpose of accusing Sam Downing et al. of abandoning scripture and leading their congregation down the wide road that leads to destruction. It has nothing to do with how sweet Sam Downing is towards the old ladies in his congregation, or how well he connects to the pagan punk teenagers. We don't need to know those details to discuss what has actually been written.
4&5. Your comments here are fine, but they have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand. Do you believe that the topic up for debate is actually important? If you do, then why not comment on it? If not, then why do you bother to post any comments at all?
Lucas:
Really, Lucas? Rather than being off topic, I think he lays some wonderful wise guidlines for a blog like this. If I were the Bayly's I would have potential bloggers subscribe to it before they engage.
The reason I think some of us have made those comments is exactly because of the kind of responses you made to Christian. Unwarranted comments re Christian (above) and assumptions and untrue statements (lies) about Sam Downing. Do you see the sin in this?
As for your remark: "Not a single thing you stated in your rather lengthy comment has anything to do with the issue at hand": I see more of the gospel in his comments than in yours and many of those posted here who ademently say are defending the gospel.
I've heard godly, mature men debate issues and it doesn't look anything like this. I, for one, will be leaving this blog to you and others who are bent on agendas without personal intellectual honesty regarding your own comments and those you slander in the name of Biblical correctness. There are better places to engage and learn.
Blair
I'm not sure why people have to personally know others to respond to their writings? So I can't tell people to stay away from Ken Copeland's ministry unless I've met Ken Copeland? Do I need to meet the elders in Salt Lake City to confront the mormons at my door? Why can someone not respond to writings?
"I'd encourage everyone who enjoys these blogging forums to make a point of stepping away from the keyboard a couple of times a week to walk down to your local coffee shop, pub, or sportsbar. Start building relationships with unbelievers, not to change them, but rather to better understand them"
The condescension is tiresome. There often seems to be this conceit that conservatives (or whatever you prefer to call them) don't evangelize. Knowledge is a key component of faith; it doesn't help much to evangelize if you do so with false teaching.
"we'd all do well to ask ourselves a key question from time to time - ultimately, am I putting my confidence in Christ alone, or am I also banking on my own 'rightness'"
True, but what does that have to do with this discussion? Are you accusing those who hold to the historic teaching of doing this?
I just see more symptoms of what happens in every one of these discussions, where those holding to the historic teaching are accused in some way of being uncharitable meanies. (BTW, on a less serious note, someone someday should explain the fixation of many in the PCA with coffee shops.)
Coffee shops . . . at least here in Seattle, they're the "in" place to hang out. In line with the rest of Seattle culture, to be cool you need to know some obscure/unique/cool coffee shop that most of your acquaintances have barely even heard of. (The Seattle music scene is basically the same). It's basically "everything goes except for the old way of doing it" (old being Starbucks . . . true Seattlites hate Starbucks - the whole "stick it to the man" thing - and Starbucks isn't obscure and edgy).
Not sure if it's the same elsewhere . . . or how it relates to PCA culture!
/end interuption :)
-JH
Jack's Pipe,
Coffee Shops = Rich people with lots of disposable income.
PCA = Rich people with lots of disposable income.
How did I do? :)
Archie
Blair K. said, "Rather than attempting to speak to the issue at hand, I am jumping in ask if you think it is fair to disparage a man and his ministry based solely on the issue at hand?"
I really don't have any response to this, since Tim and others have been trying to keep this thread on-topic, and your comment admittedly seeks to stray from it. If you want to defend Rev. Downing's position scripturally, I'd be happy to think about it.
I also don't think I can add anything meaningful to what's been said here in defense of Biblical sexuality. But I'll make a couple of observations anyway...
Can this be seen as an instance of the situation in II Timothy 4, where teachers come to itch the ears of people who will not endure sound teaching and who turn them aside unto "fables"? If not, why not?
Rev. Downing's paper is thin on Biblical support for its positions, but it does refer to Acts 16 and 17. First, I think it's odd they would highlight a chapter of the Bible where the unsaved become furious with the apostles for turning the world upside down. Is that what they say about Downing's church in Denver? Is he in any danger of being dragged into the street there by a pack of angry pagans? As David and Tim suggested in their critique, true disciples are persecuted for their message and have the scars to prove it. I love what Kierkegaard said about a preacher's echo: "...when one preaches Christianity in such a way that the echo answers, 'Away with that man from the earth, he does not deserve to live,' know then that this is the Christianity of the New Testament. Without change from the time of our Lord Jesus Christ, capital punishment is the penalty for preaching Christianity as it truly is" (Attack on Christendom). For those of you who know, is this the echo that reverberates from the preaching there, or is it more along the lines of "Glorious, profound, serious-minded Christian, thou shouldst be exalted to princely rank, etc." Obviously, I don't know.
In his paper, Downing gives us dubious interpretations of Scripture, which remind me of those WouldJesusDiscriminate.com billboards. I saw one last weekend asserting that the story of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 was proof that the early church accepted homosexuality. It may seem unfair to juxtapose that with City Presbyterian, but if its pews are filled with political liberals, how can anyone not be wary of its future direction? Once you make a distinction between theology and PCA culture and decide that what belongs to the culture is disposable, what other principles can you get rid of? Is opposition to gay marriage just a relic from PCA culture?
It occurs to me that the teachings of egalitarianism originate not from prayerful study of the Bible but from the anger and rebellion of a world who wants to be free from the shackles of tradition and authority. But rebellion is like witchcraft. And egalitarianism comes from culture first; then preachers (good-intentioned or not) open their Bibles looking for ways to make their message less of a stumbling-block to the culture. These steps are in the wrong order.
Next: Preachers or evangelists with liberal leanings labor continually under a delusion that the world is positively inclined toward Christianity rather than at war against it. They seem to have a rosy view of spiritual darkness, thinking that, if only churches would put ribbons in the right place, floods of the unsaved would pour in. Do they believe in spiritual warfare? Do they prepare their congregations for the persecutions that are coming?
Finally. My sister, a committed secularist, once said the reason she wasn't "a believer" was because the church we grew up in had a Biblical view of sexual roles. Knowing her well enough, I looked at her and nearly guffawed in her face. Rather, my sister's problem is her unwillingness to bow her knee to Jesus and acknowledge the fact that she isn't God. It's the offense of the Cross, which only the Holy Spirit can cause us to love. But say she happened into City Presbyterian, was charmed by their enlightened gender opinions, and claimed to be converted. Would it be to Christ that she was converted or to a counterfeit? To put it theologically, is Rev. Downing adding anything to the Gospel by preaching non-stereotypical gender roles in addition to the Cross? Even if he's not saying that explicitly from the pulpit, is that what his converts are thinking?
We just linked the beginning of our post to a web site where Pastor Downing's paper may be downloaded, now. When we posted this critique, we were not aware of any place where it was available on the web.
Also prior to this posting, we checked with two members of Rocky Mountain Presbytery on the accuracy of the report on the origin and disposition of the matter by Rocky Mountain Presbytery. Finally, we contacted Pastor Downing to let him know that we'd be favorably disposed toward publishing his response to our critique of his paper, should he choose to produce one.
I'm interested why the moderator of Rocky Mountain Presbytery did not allow the presbytery to vote on Village Seven's original motion, that the General Assembly be asked to amend the BCO to clarify that "minister" refers to a teaching elder?
I imagine there will be many presbyteries (not to mention elders within Rocky Mountain presbytery)who will disagree with the ruling that was made. Seems like this is something the General Assembly should take up, especially since it involves the meaning of terms in the BCO.
As a Calvinist outsider (EFCA), I approach this issue with assumptions:
1. God never wants the Church to adapt to the sinful ethics of the culture of our times, ever. U.S. society is sinning by being feminist. I believe the pastor of this church wants to fit in with Denver secular culture, so that he's not called a fundamentalist by people from whom he wants good regard.
2. It ain't "egalitarianism." It's specifically Feminism, semantically Trojan-horsing into the Church under a sterile name. We should name it for what it is.
3. Feminism by its very nature is anti-Christian. Feminist ideology cannot be redeemed.
But people who cite R.L. Dabney against feminism aid the feminist cause, since the feminists will use Dabney's reprehensible views about race (his "kinism") to bludgeon the biblicists to death.
>But people who cite R.L. Dabney against feminism aid the feminist cause, since the feminists will use Dabney's reprehensible views about race (his "kinism") to bludgeon the biblicists to death.
Who cares?
Because: if our goal is to pursuade people unto repentance -- not just self-indulgently grandstand -- then giving positive credence to the other side's claim that complemetarianism is racist is a really stupid thing to do.
Dabney is a completely poisoned well on this topic.
>Because: if our goal is to pursuade people unto repentance
Someone is kidding themselves. Our goal is to bear witness to the truth. I'm not fool enough to think I'll be persuading someone "unto repentance."
David wrote: "Someone is kidding themselves. Our goal is to bear witness to the truth. I'm not fool enough to think I'll be persuading someone 'unto repentance.'"
Trey:
Spoken like a true Hyper-Calvinist.
Is it possible for us, in our own power, to change hearts and minds? No! Should we, though, because of that fact, take every opportunity to be as ornery, hateful, obstinate, and tactless as we possibly can be, because, in so doing, we just "witnessing the truth"? That's a terrible way to excuse bad behavior by wrapping it in pious clothing.
I say this, as much as i love R.L. Dabney on many issues, becasue i recognize that Jack is absolutely right. We should long to persuade with love and affection, not try to bludgeon people about with biblical facts. If we know that people are prejudiced against a particular person's writings for whatever reason, we may disagree with the prejudice, but in order to persuade, we can find someone else who says the very same thing to help convince them.
Let us not lay stumbling stones in front of the people we are calling forth to follow Christ. If they stumble, let them stumble over Christ, the stumbling stone, and not over us (as much as it is possible to prevent) or those whom we quote.
>Spoken like a true Hyper-Calvinist.
Not hardly.
>Is it possible for us, in our own power, to change hearts and minds? No!
Glad you agree!!!
>Should we, though, because of that fact, take every opportunity to be as ornery, hateful, obstinate, and tactless as we possibly can be, because, in so doing, we just "witnessing the truth"?
When you find someone advocating that please let us know...
>That's a terrible way to excuse bad behavior by wrapping it in pious clothing.
Darn right, when there is some application for that statement let us know.
Acts 18:4 "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks."
Acts 28:23 "When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening."
2 Corinthians 5:11 "Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences."
Mr. Gray,
Let's not be more spiritual than the Apostle Paul.
And chill out, dude. It is obvious that Trey is a friend.
Trey: My point exactly.
David Gray has forgotten that other good Reformed truth: the sovereign God works through means. Our mandate is to pursuade people, not bark stuff at them so we can claim to be clean of blood-guilt. Christ told Paul it was Paul's mission to turn men from darkness to light and from Satan to the living God -- not just jump up on a stump, say a few badly-chosen words, and then blow off's people's rejection as the inevitable response of the spiritually dead. Paul also wrote in II Corinthians, "Knowing the fear of God, we pursuade men."
Thorough-going Feminism is an enemy of Christianity. Evangelicals who have imbibed of feminism are like those corrupted nobles in Nehemiah's day who's kids were all intermarried with the clan of Tobiah the Ammonite. They had sworn loyalty oaths to him, and were enthralled with him.
But trying to quote Dabney in war with the Feminists is like giving Tobiah a gun, exposing your belly, and saying "Shoot me." What kind of strategic thinking is that? I can see is the possibility of extracting distinct, good points out of Dabney, and then adapting those to the conflict at hand.
Exposing the Feminist character of Christian egal ideology is crucial. These people are trying to replace the Bible's teachings about male and female roles with Feminism. That's why the issue is important, and that's why it can't be something about which "good Christians can be allowed to co-exist under the same polity", any more than allowing Hindu pantheism in under some other innocuous name is allowable.
Dude
>And chill out, dude. It is obvious that Trey is a friend.
Hmmm, the part where he said I was a hyper-calvinist must have obscured that.
>David Gray has forgotten that other good Reformed truth: the sovereign God works through means.
No. What does the WCF identify as the ordinary means of grace? Word, sacrament, and prayer.
>>Our mandate is to pursuade people, not bark stuff at them so we can claim to be clean of blood-guilt. Christ told Paul it was Paul's mission to turn men from darkness to light and from Satan to the living God -- not just jump up on a stump, say a few badly-chosen words, and then blow off's people's rejection as the inevitable response of the spiritually dead.
Who is dishonest enough or blind enough to assert that I argue that we should "jump up on a stump, say a few badly-chosen words, and then blow off's people's rejection as the inevitable response of the spiritually dead"?
>>But trying to quote Dabney in war with the Feminists is like giving Tobiah a gun, exposing your belly, and saying "Shoot me." What kind of strategic thinking is that? I can see is the possibility of extracting distinct, good points out of Dabney, and then adapting those to the conflict at hand.
Do you argue that we shouldn't quote Paul in war with feminists? After all he said "One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true." That certainly isn't a statement that is acceptable to our modern sensibilities. Do we grab a few points from Paul but decide to avoid using his name because he would be offensive to people in rebellion?
Was Dabney in error? Yes, who is not? Spurgeon was in error too, although not in ways that are quite as offensive to modern prejudices. But then he hadn't experienced what Dabney experienced either. Dabney made assertions which I'm not prepared to have sympathy for but I'm quite prepared to have sympathy for Dabney the sinner and saint.
I'm going to pass on responding to your points, because they are so silly. Have a nice day.
>Have a nice day.
Thanks!
I see City Presbyterian has fixed the mispellings of "nursery" next to the names of those three female staff members on their web page now.
--Michael
Pastor Gleason has an excellent post on this topic:
http://rongleason.blogspot.com/2007/05/christian-feminism-xi.html
"Dabney....said that abolitionism would lead to women voting,..... children's rights, and animal rights..."
The cause and effect relationship has not been demonstrated, but that is what happened -- once people did the right thing and freed the slaves, reform started to take place in other areas of society as well. Funny about that, but, give the Holy Spirit an inch and He'll take a mile.
As for Dabney, perhaps he was a "prophet" of sorts, since his prediction came true, but he was an evil man and a racist. Just because someone can "prophesy" accurately doesn't make him good.
Remember Balaam? He was a "prophet" too, but God used a female donkey to tell Balaam right from wrong. Sometimes the greater ass is the one in the saddle.
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
David and Tim,
Let me weigh in with some facts, but first my qualification: I first attended City Pres in December 2003 and wrote a painful letter leaving the church for reasons of conscience in September 2005. I was there as an eyewitness while all this came into being.
I disagree with several characterizations Sam makes in his paper about how the congregation felt about Sara's title of minister. Because the naming of church staff is so crucial to God’s church, I believe that even if one person raises questions about the propriety of such a decision by a pastor, one cannot characterize the sentiment as "overwhelmingly positive." It is regrettable when layman of the church need to be the source of such questions on something so obviously dubious. Several of us raised the question to each other and to Sam. Sam is an Evangelist and City is a mission church – yet there is a body of elders in the Presbytery serving as a session for City. I would hope they would have raised the question - Sam told me personally that the City Pres session approved the decision about Sara’s title. I don’t think you will find meeting minutes to that effect as the City Pres session meetings are mostly held on conference calls in conjunction with meetings of the Church-Planting subcommittee of the MNA committee of the RM Presbytery. That was true at least as of mid-2005. I asked several times who the men of the session are - got a few different answers over the course of my time at City. I repeatedly asked questions about accountability for City Pres, and even raised the question to Sam himself about why the RMP uses the evangelist form of government for its mission churches, especially when (as Sam writes in his apology) there are so many PCA churches close by. BCO 8-6 calls out foreign lands or destitute parts of the church as a requirement for that choice of mission church government. It is very risky (as I said to Sam as well), and therefore should only be used when the other two options for church government of mission churches are impractical. It worries me to this day, not because I lack trust in the evangelists of the RMP, but because the presbytery would take the risk, and, at least in the case of City Pres in downtown Denver, apparently needlessly.
To correct a statement you made at the outset, I recall Sam sending an initial e-mail in early 2005 to the congregation about installing Sara as Minister of Congregational Life. I was taken back by the brazenness of the decision, and the sloppiness of the e-mail. The word "install" is used for someone who is already ordained and about to (re)enter office. I called the assistant pastor, who dealt with it, and a correction went out that explained Sara would be "commissioned." Weeks later, she was indeed commissioned, with the commendation of Phoebe (Rom 16) basically given as the precedent for what we were doing. Being a friend and very supportive of her ministry (little-m), my wife and I withheld judgment about whether to stand and support Sara publicly, or dissent by remaining seated – it would depend on how the event was described by Sam in church that Lord’s Day. Sounds contradictory (if no biblical warrant, then why the wait-and-see decision?), but we wanted to support the government of the church if there was any way we could do it. Well, words and other gestures and ceremony (I believe there was a laying on of hands) led my wife Alissa and me to dissent and remain seated. I could not support what was going on, for it had no biblical precedent and was, in our view, a misleading event that was potentially doing great damage to those in the congregation who didn't understand the significance of it. So, if commissioning counts as "appointed" as you write, then no foul, but that's what happened. Let me end by saying that Sara is a wonderful and vibrant lady (recently married) who is certainly a party to what is happening, but should not be blamed for what is going on. If the PCA ultimately finds that this decision should not stand, then the responsibility lies within the men of the Presbytery.
David, Tim, thank you for your voice. Sincerely, Mark Scharpen
Can I issue a challenge to you, Gentlemen? For those of you who hold a death grip on your convictions about the crystal-clarity of Scripture on this topic, how about just listening to some of your brothers who differ? We are so short on humility that it seems impossible to consider the possibility that we might be even a little bit wrong, or that others have valid arguments. If you have never honestly listened to a Christian who holds to an egalitarian position, consider reading "Two Views on Women in Ministry", "Finally Feminist" or "The Fall of Patriarchy". The strawmen being erected throughout this discussion do not do justice to our theological tradition.
>We are so short on humility that it seems impossible to consider the possibility that we might be even a little bit wrong, or that others have valid arguments.
No, it is the feminists and egalitarians who are so short on humility that they think they are the first to understand God in 2000 years of church history. Now that is breathtaking.
Just to clarify, that wasn't me, it was a different Keith.
A question, if I may. Sara was invited to pursue her theological education at Covenant Seminary at the M.Div. level,the pastoral degree, and evidently succeeded in showing herself approved. Unless I missed evidence to the contrary, it seems that Sara is unmarried and self-supporting. I would think it's possible that she has debt associated with her degree. Now, the church has offered her a position as "minister" to the body, which in its view appropriately utilizes the education it provided to her, and is likely paying her commensurately, enabling her to support herself and meet her financial obligations. You quite clearly object to this arrangement in every way. So my question is, if Sara, Covenant M.Div., came to you for counseling, what would you suggest she do?
Susan, thanks for your question. I know you have directed the question to officers, but as a layman, let me offer my response.
If someone had a problem with Sara's title, would you think it appropriate for a communing member of Sara's church (a mission church with an evangelist form of government) to approach her directly, or to approach the pastor who made the decision? I was a member of that church, and I chose the pastor, approaching him a couple of times about it. To me, the remedy was to have the pastoral staff make it right, not try and persuade Sara to surrender her own title.
To directly answer your question, I could only counsel biblically, and would simply ask if she thought having the title was biblically allowable. Knowing her as a lady of principle, I know that she would say, "Of course." I would discuss biblical sexuality as regards the government of the church as I know it, and it would be contrary. Beyond that, it is the Lord who works in the hearts of men, and would try as a counselor to respond only as she raised the topic. The purpose of counseling is not to teach per se, but to listen and support and draw out, and inject relevant facts when warranted for clarity. Counselors should leave persuasion to the rhetoricians. Now if a pastor is counseling, then he must discern when to switch roles from counselor to pastor. Not being a pastor, I bet that's a Spirit-led thing if there ever was one. I will end my answer to your specific question by saying that choosing another denomination in the Christian church that is consistent with her conscience on the doctrine of biblical sexuality is a perfectly acceptable choice. If I am not mistaken, I think you are suggesting in your question that mitigating circumstances might be grounds for a church to relax its stance on doctrine, to which I would object in the strongest terms.
Sara knew that my wife and I objected to her title. Would anyone object to the statement that "minister" is a title of spiritual pre-eminence? Pastor Downing did in his paper. He argues that the title "director" is more esteemed and authoritative than "minister." In fact, he writes that "minister" is "much less authoritative-sounding" than "director," yet up until sometime in mid-2005 he introduced himself at the beginning of the church service as the senior minister, and entitled himself Senior Minister in the bulletin two lines above the "Minister of Congregational Life." At some point after that, he distanced himself from the title minister by using the title "Pastor" in the bulletin. Go look at any bulletin in early 2005 (http://www.citypres.org/about_sundays_ordo.html) . As he wrote in his paper, he calls himself Reverend, but he also entitled himself and his other teaching elder "Minister." Regarding the term "minister" in the PCA Book of Church Order (http://www.pcanet.org/BCO/), my cursory examination of uncovered nearly 50 instances of its use. In each instance, I surmised interchangeability with the substitute term "teaching elder." In many instances, the word "he" accompanies "minister" in the context. In most instances, the term does not allow the word to refer to a female, because the sections regard the work of teaching elders in the PCA, all of whom are men. So, the assertion in Downing's paper that "absolutely nowhere in the BCO does it state that the title 'minister' may only be used for ordained elders" is positively misleading. The BCO doesn't explicitly state that officers of the church must obey the ten commandments either, but some things can be reasonably inferred, if you know what I mean. Though the use of the title is not an explicit violation of BCO 7-3 (because that section refers only to office holders), the use of the term for a female is plainly contrary to the sense of the PCA, as reflected in the BCO. One remedy for the church might be an overture to the PCA General Assembly that would loosen the language of 7-3 by removing the phrase "who holds office." It seems silly that such a change is necessary, because the rest of the BCO is so plain in its sense on the matter.
Finally, I would say that the issues you raised about Sara's situation are irrelevant. To show oneself approved for the MDiv does not entitle one to office in the church, or, in my judgment, a title of spiritual pre-eminence. And, your summary that there is objection "to this arrangement in every way" is false. I, for one, do not object in every way - only with the title. If you knew Sara, I think you would support her ministry. She really is a lovely lady, very able and winsome.
Thanks again for your question. Mark A. Scharpen
Thank you for your irenic reply, Mark. I believe I understand your position, but the heart of my question remains unaddressed. Covenant Seminary, a PCA institution, conferred Sara's degree. Sara might have chosen a PC-USA seminary like Princeton if she were interested in ministering in the PC-USA, but she obviously did not. Although Sara is a complete stranger to me, I have to assume that her choice of Covenant reflects her conservative theological views, most appropriately developed, shared, and put into practice in a PCA setting. A PCA church has now hired Sara, and given her a title appropriate to her education, while at the same time, has taken pains to remain within bounds of the BOCO as currrently written.
My point is that she has received PCA insititutional affirmation every step of the way to her present position. Covenant accepted her tuition money, and granted her the M.Div. degree, and now she has a PCA job which is permitting her to exercise her gifts, as well as support herself and meet her financial obligations, whatever they may yet be.
Thus, it strikes me that by its own actions, the PCA has placed itself on a trajectory regarding women in ministry which is at odds with the one you believe to be correct. In other words, the denomination as a whole has acted to interpret the "wiggle room" in its own BOCO differently than you would.
Sara has walked faithfully under PCA leadership from the beginning. In light of this, I must take issue with your suggestion that counseling her out of the denomination is appropriate.
I appreciate your engagement on this question with me.
Susan
Susan,
You may like the direction the PCA is heading, but that doesn't make it right. As Tim and David have demonstrated thoroughly in their writings on this blog, the problem is a deviation from Scripture, which has the final word for the church's doctrine and practice. Institutional support doesn't matter if the institution is straying from God's word. Why in the world a "conservative" seminary is allowing women to earn M.Div degrees is simply beyond me.
David asks "Why in the world a 'conservative' seminary is allowing women to earn M.Div degrees is simply beyond me."
Well, you see, "conservative" is an elastic term. If you're a conventional evangelical, you can sort of roll-your-own conservativism, cherry-picking your way through the good deposit of faith, and rationalizing away what you don't pick.
Back in the theological dark ages, Dallas Seminary only admitted men to its student body. If you asked the administration why, you'd hear something like this:
"DTS is founded to train vocational Christian pastors. Inasmuch as Scripture limits that office to men, there is no credible reason to include women in our student body. They're barred from exercising the ministry for which we're training our students."
Now, the time came when pressures built against that point of view. Part of those pressures were financial -- the federal government was going to deny federal dollars for any student attending an institution that barred students based on sex, for example. The same pressures urged that the seminary's financial well-being would be enhanced if women were paying into it, and there were certainly a lot of women who wanted very much to acquire a DTS degree (among them Carolyn Custus James). And, of course, there were the enormous pressures from the spirit of the age, ensconsced in church boards and mission agencies, which were simply gaa-gaa over the newly fashionable feminism.
Today, DTS is about 50 percent women. But, there's more! About 50 percent of the faculty are committed egalitarians and teach this error in DTS' Bible and theology classrooms. This figure, by the way, comes from an old friend, still a member of the faculty, who's watched the metamorphosis since the Eighties.
Most folks in the pew think that seminaries are driven by theological principle and that their agenda is shaped by confessional standards. The truth is far more pedestrian, viz. that they are market-driven entities, responsive to those whose theological commitments and agendas direct their deployment of money toward seminaries.
Susan.
I think you have a good point about the PCA holding some of the responsibility in allowing Sara to pursue the avenue she has chosen. She has afterall been encouraged on her track by men that have observed and approved the whole course. I have been told by respectable senior TE's in the PCA that sometimes seminaries will get "loose" on admission standards in order to satisfy a delicate budget. That is likely to be the reason Sara was able to receive her degree. My roomate, during my single years, was also a Covenant Seminary student just a few years before Sara. It was strictly prohibited for a woman to pursue an MDiv at their seminary then....who knows what happend over the course of just a few years. With that said though Susan, I think that you will see that the PCA is in debate over this issue. Sara slipped through the cracks of demoninational standards into a renigade church and ultimately they will have to face accountability from the rest of the demoniation. Basically, the fact of her ministry appears to be just now surfacing broadly although under much scrutiny for some time now more locally.
Interesting observations, Fr. Bill and Mrs. Sharpen. If I’m following you both, it's been very much about the money. I'm not particularly surprised, but I do find it ironic that having seen fit to have women stand in the budgetary gap, the PCA now appears to be far more concerned about theological consequences of that action than the theological causes. I submit that a reversal of priorities is more appropriate.
As for Sara having "slipped through the cracks of demoninational (sic) standards," I think that's wishful thinking. Slowly but surely, the PCA is changing because the number of conservative women MDivs graduating from conservative reformed seminaries is growing. As time passes, they cannot help but put proper pressure on the church that begat them to acknowledge them as legitimate.
Typo apology: Mrs. Scharpen
Susan: "Slowly but surely, the PCA is changing because the number of conservative women MDivs graduating from conservative reformed seminaries is growing. As time passes, they cannot help but put proper pressure on the church that begat them to acknowledge them as legitimate."
First, you read me correctly. It was as much about the money as with anything else. Which is NOT to say that it was only about the money, of course. Still, money was a big factor.
As to your comments I quoted above, I fully agree with you. The PCA, like most other evangelical denominations, has pretty well ceded its leadership formation to seminaries, which -- as we see in the case of Covenant -- they do not control very well on matters such as the Bible's standards on sexual ethics, roles, ministries, and related matters. The next generation of leaders of the PCA are in Covenant's classrooms right now. And, its graduates -- given time and room to politic -- will necessarily bring increasing pressures to change PCA values and standards. It's as inevitable as water running downhill.
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