Lutherans masquerading as Reformed...

If you tired of the discussion under Craig French's post Tullian's therapeutic grace..., bear with me and read my comment just made at the bottom of that post's comments, on October 23 at 3:50 PM. And in that connection...

Would someone please usher the Escondido and Federal Vision Lutherans back into the Lutheran churches where they grew up? Then, everything they write will make a lot more sense. You know, something about wearing the uniform of the army you fight for?

And if you don't, you get...


Tim Bayly

Tim serves Clearnote Church, Bloomington, Indiana. He and Mary Lee have five children and fifteen grandchildren.



Reminiscent of what somebody said about one of the first FV 'trials'...something about an 'ecclesiastical lynching...that was going to be a good thing.' Interesting he's caught up in your admonition as well.

>>he's caught up in your admonition as well.

Likely this post can be seriously misunderstood, but here's the thing: when men seek to be as clear as possible in their commitments and positions, much of the strife ceases. As in, "Oh, he's Lutheran! That explains it! These are very old conflicts, and now I understand them historically. Something about Calvin and Luther disagreeing over the Sacraments..."





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Even that isn’t so simple.  Calvin once stated that his view on the Lord’s Supper was precisely that of Melancthon’s and if Melancthon became aware of any difference between them he should inform Calvin and that Calvin would modify his position.  In so far as I’m aware the primary differences on the Lord’s Supper between Luther and Calvin were regarding how Christ is present in His supper and whether unbelievers receive Christ in the supper.  Not small things but they were much closer to each other in the matter than they would be to modern evangelicals.

One thing I've gradually realized is that the LCMS is quite large resulting in a substantial diversity of belief and practice.  Even given their tendency to count baptized members who haven't attended any time recently they are probably at least double the size of all the NAPARC members added together.  The PCA has a wide range of churches and it is just a fraction of the LCMS.  There is a definite minority of the LCMS who have a strong antinomian streak (as you remember from your school days).  

Didn't mean to slip in the formatting code.  Sorry.

Historically there is only one difference between the Lutherans and the Reformed on the sacraments - only one.  It is the real presence of Christ.  On everything else here the two positions agree.  If you can name a single Reformed "Lutheran" who believes in the Real Presence in, with, or under the elements, I will agree that you have a point.

Where the Reformed have departed from their own doctrine is the denial of sacramental efficacy, which is an un-Reformed thing taken from the Baptists.

I think that the issues of 'Lutheranism' are two here.

Looking in Article XII of Augsburg, I think you find a denial of what a Calvinist would understand as 'perseverance/preservation of the saints.' There are some FV positions that have been asserted as looking more like an Augsburg position.

With regard to the R2K/WW folks, the issue is the strong Law/Gospel dichotomy that is very typically Lutheran.

In light of Mr. Brainerd's comment it is worth noting that Calvin was part of the team at Worms that defended the Augsburg Confession. He also worked under its authority in Strasburg. Calvin also advised fellow ministers that they could sign the Augsburg Confession without scruple.

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