Selling England by the pound...
"Can you tell me where my country lies?"
said the unifaun to his true love's eyes.
"It lies with me!" cried the Queen of Maybe
- for her merchandise, he traded in his prize.- Genesis
From the docket for the next meeting of Tim Keller's presbytery:
3. We recommend that Presbytery dismiss all Teaching Elders with calls to Brooklyn Presbyterian Church, TE Matthew Brown, Vito Aiuto, Christopher Hildebrand, David Stancil, Brian Steadman, Marc Choi, and Jamison Galt to the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, pending their reception there.
4.We recommend that TE Tim Keller’s views on creation, historical Adam and evolution be found in keeping with our doctrinal standards, and request that the NYMP clerk inform Calvary Presbytery of our determination.
For the uninitiated... "TE" stands for teaching elder which is PCA-speak for "Rev." or "Pastor;" and the Evangelical Presbyterian Church is where men move when they want women to exercise even more authority over men than women already do across Tim's presbytery; when they want to cast off all restraint and have women ordained to the pastorate and eldership, preaching in corporate worship and disciplining men (all of which the EPC allows). Women teaching and exercising authority over men is close to the EPC's raison d'être (but read David Booth's comment below).
There's really nothing more to say about the feminist commitments of Tim and his presbytery. The PCA has decided to swallow it and move on. So now we have days of creation and we're being assured Tim's views on evolution are in accord with the Westminster Standards.
Yes yes. Of course.
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Comments
"Ooh Superman where are you now
When everything's gone wrong somehow
The men of steel, the men of power
Are losing control by the hour." --Genesis
Sometimes I can't tell if you are serious or not Tim. :)
Are the parts of the docket from Metro NY accurate?
Thank you for writing this.
>>Are the parts of the docket from Metro NY accurate?
No, I don't think so; particularly the part about Tim's commitments to Evolution being in keeping with the doctrinal standards. ;-/
Love,
I dont know if I should respond with a :) or :(
I expect Calvary Presbytery to continue addressing MNY or go to the next step (according to the BCO).
Tim,
As is often the case, real life can be a bit messy. You write: "Women teaching and exercising authority over men is the EPC's raison d'être." Actually, when the EPC was formed there was also a great of confusion around the charismatic movement. The EPC was intentionally more open to sign gifts being for today than the PCA was. This was also a reason why some churches united with the EPC instead of the PCA. Furthermore, I am aware of at least one EPC congregation that left the PCUSA and joined the EPC precisely because the PCUSA was trying to force them to elect a female Elder. Did they move to the wrong communion? Perhaps. But it might not have been obvious to them that the PCA (or another NAPARC denomination) was a better choice. Because of our sinfulness, it might be that the primary contact that such a congregation had with NAPARC was with mean spirited Elders or Theologically confused ministers. Such particular experiences impact our judgement. Real life is messy.
Of course (OF COURSE!) this is very different than a PCA church leaving to go into the EPC.
Your brother,
David
Dear David,
Yes, you're right. The EPC is more open to the charisma than the OPC or the PCA, but I think it's accurate to say the EPC's reason to exist is woman officers--particularly since the influx of PC(USA) churches these last few years. Second Pres. in Memphis is a good example. Our friend, Dick DeWitt, was a trustee of Banner of Truth when he led Second out of the PC(USA) and went EPC. This allowed them to continue to have woman deacons. So with all the more recent departures: I have no question the charisma played an almost insignificant part in churches' decisions to go EPC rather than PCA. It was all about not wanting to repent over their practice of woman officers--pastors, elders, and deacons--who teach and exercise authority over men.
The EPC was founded back in the early eighties when David, Nathan, and I were at Gordon-Conwell and I remember Richard Lovelace posting an open letter to the EPC founders (on the door of his office) calling on them not to found one more splinter denomination, but to join one of the presbyterian denominations already in existence. His appeal was to no avail.
So now we have the EPC which allows woman officers and, not surprisingly, is more loose on any number of other doctrinal matters, including the charisma. As it happens, I agree with them about the charisma.
Love,
PS: I changed the wording slightly to direct people to your comment.
>>Are the parts of the docket from Metro NY accurate?
Dear Andrew,
You have been depending on our accuracy concerning Tim Keller for a number of years and have no reason to doubt anything we write concerning the man, his church, or his presbytery. If you think someone's fabricated this text, contact his presbytery's stated clerk and ask if the quotation is wrong.
Then again, Tim's guys read anything we write about him and would depend upon J Kru to correct any error.
Our sources are good. And if anyone finds errors of fact, we encourage them to let us know and we'll correct our text and call attention to our corrections.
Love,
Tim, I have no doubt that you are right overall. But reality is sometimes less logical and clear than we expect. I am well acquainted with a church in Pennsylvania that has never had a woman officer and resisted pressures to have them when part of the PCUSA that moved to the EPC a few years ago.
>>reality is sometimes less logical and clear than we expect.
Dear Dan,
You're right, and the Brooklyn pastors mentioned above are denying any desire to take the final step of having women pastors and elders. Still, the EPC must have some reason to exist, and those who serve in the EPC are committed to a truce with the feminist heresy--even those who haven't yet taken the step of having woman pastors and elders.
In other words, the Apostle Paul could never be in the EPC because he would oppose the EPC's permitting woman pastors and elders. A commitment to neutrality is itself a hard position.
Do you agree?
Love,
I was looking through an old (30 years old?) Church of Scotland Book of Church Order last night and noticed that it had two separate ordination sections for "Deacons" as the office, and "Church Workers" which had subsections for "deaconesses" and "organists" and maybe a couple of other roles. I thought that was a nice way to address the deaconess issue. It was also recognition that church music is important. The music leader in some churches (most?) is as important as the head pastor in telling the congregation what to do.
I suggest "most?" partly because in many churches the preacher doesn't tell the congregation what to do. The music leader tells you exactly how to worship with song; the preacher often just makes gentle suggestions about how to live your life, or just explains Bible passages.
Tim, I agree with this: "A commitment to neutrality is itself a hard position." The folks I mentioned, though, probably don't think they are committed to neutrality. Their focus was more on being allowed to do (or not do) what they have always been under pressure to change.
Sadly, Dan, if I know human nature, I'd say that means they are less than 5 years away from having women officers. That's simply the way these things work. When we get all in a tizzy about being told what to do, even when it is right, then we like to exploit our freedom after the fact, just to show our reasonableness "when we aren't forced."
I just put it in my calendar to ask you about it in 5 years... :)
With love,
-Joseph
Thanks Tim, you are right.
I was just a little stunned by #3.
>>I was just a little stunned by #3.
They all say they don't want to go EPC in order to ordain women elders and pastors. Rather, it's that they're convinced "TRs" are taking over the PCA (as indicated by several initiatives at the last GA) and they want to be a part of a Gospel-focused denomination; also that they will be able to get more money from the EPC than the PCA; and something else I can't remember.
Give them ten years, though, and we'll see. For myself, the problem Tim Keller's men and their churches and presbytery have always had with the PCA is authority--the authority of Scripture, the Standards, the Book of Church Order, and that much-ballyhooed "connectionalism" which is our submission to one another.
Love,
Yes I agree with that assessment. That is a huge problem in the PCA, not just Keller and MNY Presbytery.
Who could forget this: http://www.parkslopechurch.com/sermon/renewing-ecclesiology/
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