Blah blah blah blah blah I blah blah would blah blah blah <i>definitely</i> say blah blah blah blah blah...

Sorry, let me paste that full quote for you because it's even worse in context than out!

He said, "Christians believe in common grace. Christians believe that God gives non-Christians LOTS of wisdom, LOTS of insight because God is so gracious that he works through the whole human community. A lot of Christians don't see that but it’s in the Bible. They act like staying in their own little tribal ministries, they basically show that they think everything outside of the church is darkness, bad and evil.”

Only a really really REALLY smart guy could make something this simple so complicated that even he can't answer it.

So from a mere woman who isn't nearly as learned or as article [NOTE FROM TIM: don't you mean arteculate?] as you can be when you want to be - here's a little home truth:

Gay "marriage" does not exist. You can't make two men married to each other any more than you can make a round square or a married bachelor. Marriage is something that can only exist between man and woman - if it's man and man or woman and woman or John Smith and his pet rock or Cyndi and her dolphin - it is NOT marriage.

As to gay rights - they have the same rights as everyone else. A gay man can marry a woman willing to marry him just as much as a straight man can marry a woman willing to marry him. See, equal rights?

There, I answered the question and did it with fewer words. Pastor Keller, being a really really smart guy takes many more words to NOT answer the question.

Just sign me,

Mere Woman

Hm. My "face-palm" got eated.

/c:

Dear "Dice,"

The best way to see the errors is to compare the above pastoral care and proclamation of the Gospel to any recorded in Scripture. Compare, for instance, this presentation of the grace of the Law concerning New York's homosexual marriage to the Apostle Paul's presentation of the grace of the Law concerning Athen's idolatry. Then all things become clear and we realize how far we've wandered from Gospel preaching and ministry.

The proper use of contextualization is not to know where and how to dull God's truth in order to keep it from offending hard hearts, but to sharpen God's truth in order to allow it to pierce soft hearts, leading them to repentance.

Clearly, here we have the first, while with the Apostle Paul speaking to the Areopagus, we have the second.

And this isn't even to address the question of where in the world are all these conservatives who are angry and threatened and condemn homosexuals? I've never once in all my life met one of them.

And yes, I've heard of Fred Phelps, but one swallow doth not a summer make.

But I'm hopeful a number of others will take the time to answer more fully.

Love,

"What I tell you in secret, that proclaim on the rooftops... unless you live in NYC."

"If any man is ashamed of me and my word, I will be ashamed of him when I come in the power of my Father and the holy angels... unless, of course, he lives in a progressive culture and preaches to a mixed audience."

"The homosexual... will not inherit the kingdom of God... probably... well possibly... well maybe you shouldn't really say for sure... unless you are so backwards that you still want to confront sin without endless qualifications."

-Just a few quotes from the CLV (the Carnal Lusts Version) of the Bible...

Tim Keller says that if a doctor prescribes life-saving medicine, you don't first ask how it tastes. You just take it because you believe it will save your life. He then analogizes that to whether we should talk about Christian views of sex to non-believers. He says, "It is just as wrong-headed to taste-test Christianity as to taste-test medicines. How silly to evaluate Christianity on its sex ethic!"

He then says, "The real question is, 'is Jesus really the Son of God?'... Has he really died for you because you are a sinner? If he is and has, who cares what he asks you to do or not to do? You should do it!"

He continues, "In a sense, the gospel does not let you talk about anything else first. It says, 'I won't talk to you about sexuality or gender roles or suffering or anything else until you determine what you will do with him."

Yes, those questions are of course important. But in essence what Keller is saying is that we should not bring up anything that people find negative about Christianity before they believe. He's asking us to suppress large portions of scripture and only ask people to focus on one thing... was Jesus who he said he was? We shouldn't tell them what the costs might be ahead of time. That's a great question, but can it really be answered in a vacuum?

I'm sorry to have to say this, but I believe Keller is nothing more than a coward. He's afraid if he tells non-believers that the Bible says homosexuality (or sex outside of marriage, or whatever else) is a sin, that they might not then want to hear about Jesus.

How silly! It's like he's afraid that if he tells people what God's Word says, it might turn them off from God's Word!

Where in the New Testament did anyone ever hold back from telling people what God's Word said? Where in the New Testament did anyone ever shy away from what they knew would offend the sensibilities of their audiences? In fact, they were so offensive (by truthfully proclaiming ALL of God's Word) that in the end almost all of them were executed!

Paul was very clear in Romans 1 about a whole multitude of sex (and other) sins. He didn't say to himself "I'm not going to write about all that because it might discourage people from asking who Jesus really is." He didn't say to himself, "That's something they can find out later... after they meet Jesus!" No! He knew people have to know what they're getting into before they can genuinely get into it. He was very upfront about what following Christ would mean and the costs that are involved.

Jesus told the rich man he couldn't follow Him until he sold all his things... gave everything he had up. Jesus didn't say, "Hey, don't worry about the cost... just commit to me first, then I'll show you what you need to do."

How is it Keller and other liberal Christians don't understand that if you commit to a Christ who requires no change from you, then you haven't committed to the Christ of the Bible?

Keller has also said that one reason he doesn't speak out much on homosexuality is he's afraid they'll lose their meeting space at Hunter College because it's part of the City University of New York. A public school in other words. He doesn't want to offend them and lose that space. I suspect another yet related reason is he doesn't want to offend most of the people in his church and risk losing them as well. (Of course losing them would solve the loss of space problem)!

Here's the crazy thing about saying you don't want to talk about sex because it might turn people off from Jesus... a large part of the Bible is spent talking about things other than Jesus. Large portions of it talk about how to live a wise and good life, how to treat others, how to create a good society, how to worship God. So Keller is basically saying he doesn't want potential converts to have full information about just exactly what it is they're converting into - until AFTER they convert! If a man tried to sell you a car this way - you'd take him to court!

When I became a Christian I knew exactly what I was getting into. And yes, that made it much more difficult than if I hadn't known. But when I became convinced of the truth of the Bible's claims I realized I had to accept it no matter what it meant. My decision was made with full information and it therefore was much more difficult to make but it was made with much more commitment as well. If I didn't know what was in the Bible, it would have been a much easier decision - but with a lot less conviction and commitment.

Keller talks often of social justice. He says Christians "must do justice". But isn't part of justice - informing people about sin? Can justice prevail where sin abounds? Keller apparently thinks that private sexual behavior has no bearing on the rest of society... (especially if that behavior is a hot-button issue). So he never mentions it. But God made it clear that private sexual behavior DOES affect ALL of SOCIETY! A society's views on homosexuality - or extra-marital sex ARE justice issues!

How "just" is it for a child to be given by the state to two dads? Or two moms? How just is it for a child to be born to two parents who are cheating on each other? If you are truly concerned about "social justice" YOU MUST speak out about sexual sin! There are innocent victims to all sex sins. Even prostitution!

Our society tells us today that prostitution is a private matter between two consenting adults. But that's not what God said. Take a look at Leviticus 19:29. God said, "Do not defile your daughter by making her a prostitute, OR the LAND will be filled with promiscuity and detestable wickedness."

Prostitution is supposedly a private sexual behavior - as is homosexuality. However, God said what happens in private will affect the whole LAND... or in our modern-day language - the culture or the country. So private sexual behavior allowed to go unchecked and uncontested - will fill the entire country with promiscuity and wickedness! Doesn't that have a bearing on "social justice"!?

So how is it that a pastor who expresses such concern for the poor and the weak can't be bothered to mention the fact that the Bible speaks out against prostitution and homosexuality and sex with multiple partners? Seems to me that if you really care, if you really love people - you'd have to get up the courage to speak the full truth of God's Word in love. But it does take courage! Because he knows he'll be attacked. He even knows half his church might leave! And he may lose his largest meeting spot. Apparently he doesn't have the courage to stand up to all that.

It seems Keller could take the lead of a much younger man on this one. Mark Driscoll lives in a city much like NYC as far as the issue of homosexuality goes, and yet faithfully proclaims the Word of God regarding sin issues. He doesn't mince words, and yet always ends with grace and the cross. Seems to work just fine as seen from their growth and influence both locally and nationally.

Gospel-Centered: just what is it?

http://www.baylyblog.com/2010/05/tim-what-does-it-mean-for-a-new-church-plant-and-its-pastor-to-be-gospel-centered-well-it-means-the-guys-are-reading-all.html

There is no such thing as a convert without conviction of sin and repentance of such sin. And there is no conviction of sin without knowing and understanding God and His character and sin and its offense to God and the fact that we are sinners under God's wrath apart from Christ. The Lord uses the means of the entire truth preached for His Spirit to convict.

The Gospel is the good news of THE way of entrance into fellowship with God but the Good News makes absolutely no sense without an understanding of the bad news.

The Gospel is offensive to those who are perishing but it is life to those whom the Lord will save - Christ says so. To obscure that offense is to obscure the Gospel itself.

For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.

(2 Corinthians 2:15-17 ESV)

Would that we would have many men who would preach in the sight of God. It might just lay the seed for true revival in our land.

Dr. Keller and the slew of preachers coming out of Covenant Seminary, in particular, are taking the PCA back to the PCUSA. What's the difference? A gospel of grace with no law. A refusal to call sin sin. A refusal to call people to repent (unless you're a TR). A disparaging of doctrine. A bend towards social involvement and building 'community' as an end. Women's ordination. I mean the list goes on and the similarities are frightening. It's all about accommodation and man-centeredness.

Dear HZD,

First, we don't allow personal criticisms by anonymous commentators. Please comment again identifying yourself as I have done as author of this post.

Second, you speak of "success" as if you know what it is. But of course, you don't. Success is having God--not man--say "well done, thou good and faithful servant." And when He says it, it won't be based on book sales or thousands of hyper-achieving and compliant Asian singles filling our pews. It will be a function of faithfulness to our calling to guard the good deposit that has been passed on to us by warning the sheep in our flock from house to house, day and night with tears.

And faithful warnings against the garish and bloody sins of our time is precisely where Tim Keller fails. That thousands of souls say they've found his sermons and books helpful means nothing. People almost always have affection for their pastor and the numbers we serve are usually a function of geographical demographics, gift sets, and administrative savvy--not faithfulness of the pastor to His calling.

Rarely is the pastor who is faithful to his calling the pastor who is known as a super-apostle.

So, dear brother, as the King James put it, "In understanding, be men." Royalties and body counts are what the world hankers after, but they mean little to the discerning believer. Faithfulness to the Word of God is what counts and those who scratch itching ears will one day soon give an account to Him Who judges perfectly. We shall all stand before Him and have much to be ashamed for in our lives and ministries, and it's helpful to hear here what others believe are our failures.

>>you look down your sneering noses at him.

To sum up Tim Keller's response to the question as "blah, blah, blah...," was not meant to be sneering, but a loud and firm rebuke for his very public betrayal of his calling as a minister of the Gospel in refusing to answer such an excellent and helpful question.

Men like Rob Bell and Tim Keller are spewing their defective views of the Gospel ministry, Hell, the Order of Creation, transformationalist view of the Atonement, etc. across the world and they need to be rebuked--there's no doubt in my mind about that. Readers of Baylyblog ought to rejoice in its warnings against these men. Every man who loves God's Word and Truth should rejoice at these warnings.

Love,