Wheaton's Rob Bell and Bilezikian's Bill Hybels; and a warning against idolatry...
(Tim: For days now, I've received more recommendations of this video clip than I can count. Thanks to all of you. In a little while I'll post more on it, but first this. NOTE: This post has been changed to correct my error in saying Pastor Bill Hybels went to Wheaton College. His mentor has been now-retired Wheaton Bible Prof. Gilbert Bilezikian, but that relationship began when Bilezikian was teaching at Trinity College--not Wheaton.)
On MSNBC, Martin Bashir does the nasty job the elders of Mars Hill Church apparently can't summon the courage or insight for. He takes Pastor Rob Bell by the scruff of the neck and peels his adverbs off his verbs and nouns long enough to expose the deceptions that make him so much money. Bell's nothing more than a peddler of emotive words and idolatrous images, but many are fooled. His toxins go down smoothly and Baylyblog's warned readers against this hireling time after time.
Pastor Bell's the product of Wheaton College. Take a look at the job Wheaton didn't. Or maybe did?
When I first entered the ministry, there was another gifted prophet prophesying against the parts of historic Christian faith he judged old and in the way. His name was Bill Hybels and he studied under Gilbert Bilezikian at Trinity College (now Trinity International University) just prior to Bilezikian moving to Wheaton's Bible Department. Christianity Today fawned over Pastor Hybels, too, and my church mailbox was filled with offers to "Rev. Timothy Bayly" promising if I sent my money to one of Pastor Hybels' corporate enterprises, some of his churchly success might rub off on my ministry. Then maybe I could afford a similar campus, staff, hairdo, glasses, and jet. Think of it--my own private jet! Then I could pick up and minister internationally. Maybe even galactically!
So what is it about Wheaton--particularly its Bible and theology departments--that their best and brightest become advocates of the heresies that old curmudgeon, the Apostle Paul, condemned? And don't tell me you don't believe in guilt by association. If the former Wheaton was known by Billy Graham and the Auca Five, this present Wheaton is rightfully know by Pastor Bell and the many years Bible Department Prof. Bilezikian presided there as Pastor Hybels' mentor.
Thankfully Prof. Bilezikian is no longer deforming the souls passing through Wheaton, but back then he was in his prime and misleading everyone he could get his paws on. He promoted feminism and browbeat pro-life students in the campus paper, but Wheaton's trustees and presidents couldn't marshall the faith or mercy to fire him?
Please don't complain that I'm speaking too strongly against people who make a lot of money for Evangelical colleges and publishers. What do you think the Apostle Paul would say to a man who denies Hell and mocks the substitutionary atonement? Who turns God's Order of Creation on its head?
Remember how the Paul described his pastoral work--that he warned the Ephesians "day and night, "from house to house ...with tears?" Remember how he resisted the Apostle Peter to his face and publicly? How he warned the Ephesian elders of the wolves who would arise from among their own number seeking to devour the souls of God's sheep?
How do you think the Apostle Paul would deal with Pastors Hybels and Bell? Would he rebuke and warn against Pastor Joel Osteen, then salve his conscience that dealing with Pastor Osteen was all anyone could expect of him. Wheaton, Barrington, and Grand Rapids weren't his responsibility? Would the Apostle Paul rebuke the gauche while neglecting to rebuke chic Wheaton, Fuller, and Trinity grads?
There's no better place than Wheaton for Pastor Bell to come through four years of college with such a massive ego intact and apparently not a speck of self-critical capacity. Pride is Wheaton's forte.
I listened to a sermon preached in chapel by one of Wheaton's Bible profs recently while driving home from visiting family in Wheaton. The message was selected at random although the title was a bit of a tickler to me.
It was endless fawning over the students telling them how sophisticated they were, and bright, and wise, and discerning, and how no one out there in radioland had anything like their knowledge and discernment and how sophisiticated and bright and wise and utterly fantastic they were. The prof assured the student body that he was so privileged to have them as students because they were so bright and gifted. It was clear their post-graduate lives were going to give birth to such a mass of excellence that they would be the ones to change the world. Why, with just two or three of them unleashed to do their full bit of excellence on AIDS in Africa, Sting would be left scratching his head wishing he'd gone to Wheaton, too. And so on--you get the patter, right? Wheaton students get the themes and conceits of a typical commencement address in chapel every day for four years; and when Wheaton's done with them AIDS, malaria, earthquakes, tsunamis, poverty, homophobia, poverty, and thin glasses frames are history.
Abortion's still here, but hey: isn't there some woman from USC or UCLA or Stanford working on that? Can't remember her name but there's always the Catholics for babies and childbearing.
The chapel message was revolting, yet helpful in making it eminently clear where Rob Bell came from.
Back to the MSNBC interview: notice during the interview that MSNBC cycles through the movie clip of Bell giving us the rainbow. It reminds me of the Sandy Patti concert I went to back in about 1991 (don't ask) where Ms. Patti told us how very much she was committed to her husband and children as smoke enveloped her on the stage. What's my point?
Smoke and fire communicate--they're not passive--and there's a reason they're a staple of the pure idolatry of rock concerts. The musician is one of the gods.
So a rainbow comes out of Pastor Bell's hand--what's that supposed to mean? That Pastor Bell's gay? That he's tolerant? That he loves beauty? That he has the power of God? I think Pastor Bell wouldn't mind if we thought all of the above.
Wolves are never innocent in their use of the idolatry of images, and certainly not Pastor Bell. He's made his fame and fortune off images and every last one of them communicates precisely what he intends.
For now, that's it on this priceless interview. More on it later when we've finished cleaning up the transcript.
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As I tell my children, "gentle words turn away wrath, harsh words stir up anger." I think that the theological debates that are resulting from the release of Rob's book are great and help evangelicals verbalize their beliefs. Unfortunately, some leaders of the evangelical church are using this discussion as a way to vent and reveal underlying jealousy. Please realize that the world is watching and treating one another with harsh words is not helping the spread of the gospel and drawing to Christs love. Yes we need to proclaim truth, but that can be done in a respectful way. Wheaton, just like all Christian colleges, has it's faults but if we had no faults we would not need Christ!!
Athanasius doesn't agree...
"Athanasius doesn't agree..."
Ain't THAT the truth! Place St. Nicholas at his side, after he rushed across the room where the Nicene Council was meeting and landed an open-palmed slap across Arius' face.
Fr. Bill
Vicar, St. Athanasius Anglican Church
Neither did the Apostle Paul.
Funny thing about men like this - they are loathe to make declarative statements until someone questions their orthodoxy, integrity, wisdom, etc. I had one phone conversation with Gilbert Bilezikian several years ago and it left me with a definite opinion about his character. To say that he was indignant that I had the courage to question the wisdom of a stunt he was engaging in at that time, well, let's just say that is putting it mildly. I was glad he was a couple of states away instead of merely across the table.
As has been said elsewhere, the wickedly deceptive genius of Bell and his ilk is that they make assertions in the form of questions. Against such there is no defense save the use of clear, direct and even harsh truth. Yes, the world is watching and how else will we warn them of the danger?
Kamilla
Now, Tim, you need to play nice. The world is watching, after all.
Yes, your little defenseless lambs are out playing in the back 40 and the wolves are prowling around, licking their lips and looking hungry.
But that's what wolves are supposed to do. If you aren't nice to the wolves, then how will you win over the environmentalist crowd? We need to be gospel-driven, and can't put up barriers from the wolf-protectors who might turn to God.
Tongue ensconced firmly in cheek. Good classic Bayly brew here, my brother.
Heather, do you think that our Lord was missing with that whip in the Temple? The Lion is good. He is love. He is not safe, or tame, and He loves you enough to rip the dragon-scales of sin right off your--or my--back.
In the same way, we are not to be "safe" or "tame." We are to be good, we are to be loving, and we are to be willing to utter wonderful comments like Galatians 5:12.
It is a scary shame that our learning of Christ is often so weak that we will fall for this kind of pap.....and I regrettably refer to myself there, too.
>>Now, Tim, you need to play nice.
I know you spoke tongue-in-cheek, dear brother, but I think I'll answer, anyhow.
I am playing nice--nice that is to those precious souls Pastor Bell places stumbling blocks in front of. What we need are pastors who will love their sheep--really love them, showing them the mercy of Jude 23: "...save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh" (Jude 1:23).
The man's a destroyer of souls and we pastors and elders are sitting around wondering what women like Heather above might perceive as loving and not motivated by jealousy?
Hear me on this: there is absolutely nothing about Rob Bell that makes me jealous, and I do have jealousy towards other men who are officers of Christ's church. No denying that. But it's faithful men I'm jealous of--not unfaithful wolves who are devouring God's flock and will soon be forced to answer to their crimes to the Chief Shepherd.
Jealous of Rob Bell? It's laughable. I love our church. I love our elders. I love our staff. I love our music. I love my freedom to preach my conscience under the Word of God. Also other preaching opportunities I get (the local Chinese church this coming Lord's Day afternoon).
What kind of small mind and heart assumes men who rebuke false teaching are motivated by jealousy? Was the Apostle Paul jealous of the Apostle Peter?
But back to Rob Bell: may God silence him as well as every other Emergent charlatan who is like him in destroying God's sheep.
Heavenly Father, please be merciful to us all in this evil day.
Rob Bell takes the notion of "no news is good news" to a whole new level.
I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing at Bell in this interview. I can't believe how Bashir trips Bell up with such a rudimentary introductory question.
And this MSNBC ticker under Bell speaking is priceless:
BELL: GOD SHEDS TEARS WHEN HUMANS SUFFER
How pathetic.
@Mr. Bayly,
Thanks for your response to that first comment. I got shouted down once (almost literally) for criticizing one of Bell's Nooma DVDs and it shut me up. What do you do when the sheep--not the wolves--get mad because you called out a wolf?
just finished the book... slippery verbiage and double-speak infect nearly every page, and it is plain that many will lack the discernment to observe that Bell has actually crafted a God in the image of modern american culture. May God give us more men willing to stand and speak the truth with a conviction that displays the confidence with which we believe it.
>>What do you do when the sheep--not the wolves--get mad
Dear Lindsey,
Expect it. Sheep are timid and just want peace. That's why the Holy Spirit says the prophets prophesied lies and the people "loved it" that way (Jeremiah 5:31). Another thing: pray for a man to oppose the heresies. Men almost always are better-machined for such lonely stands exposing evil.
Praise God for your discernment, dear sister,
Quem lupus vult perdere, dementat prius
The original latin translated to something like, "whom the gods would destroy they first must make mad" I've simply substituted the word for wolf in place of the words for gods.
What made me laugh during the interview was that it looked like Bell knew he was toast and that he had no satisfactory answer to ANY of the questions, and by the end of the interview Brashir looked disgusted with him too...
Maybe a minor point but are you sure Hybels when to Wheaton? I thought he went to Trinity. I googled and can't find any connection of Hybels to Wheaton.
Bilezekian was at Wheaton I believe, but Hybels was not.
>>Maybe a minor point...
Not a minor point at all, dear brother. I've corrected the post and noted the correction at its beginning. Thank you much for your correction.
Love,
Ok, thank you.
"Men almost always are better-machined for such lonely stand exposing evil." And a hearty Amen to that!
While I must admit it was a bit of (likely sinful) fun to watch Bell squirm, I'm curious what everyone thinks of the interview itself. Bashir opens with a clear loaded question/bifurcation fallacy that Bell doesn't really answer (the whole "is God good but impotent, or omnipotent but evil" oversimplification). While I like Bashir's pressing of Bell later in the interview, that opening question indicates that Bashir has no interest in seriously discussing Christianity, but rather in simply bashing one of its popular mongers. That we don't like or agree with Bell doesn't mean that Bashir is any sort of ally overall.
Anyway, I'm just curious to hear some comments on the actual interview.
Here's to hoping that Phil Ryken (a man I greatly respect) will be able to steer the college in a more biblically faithful direction.
I thought the interview quite good and wonder if Bashir mght deliberately have posed the false dichotomy to draw Bell. Last night, I listened to a radio interview with Bashir as the subject (the link is available on Denny Burk's blog) and I was impressed with the research he apparently did before the interview with Bell - including reading an advance copy of the book.
Kamilla: I thought the interview quite good and wonder if Bashir mght deliberately have posed the false dichotomy to draw Bell.
I think you may be right. I saw a tweet from Huff Po stating that they discovered Bashir is a member (or attender) of Keller's church. I have no way of verifying it...but he did an interview with Keller some time back where he posed a fallacious question to Keller...very likely a set-up for an inevitable grand slam.
For Bell, it humiliated him in front of the world and exposed how deceptive, weak, effeminate, and (probably worst of all to the emergents): Trite.
Ack. I should always check out Triablogue first...Tblogue linked to an audio interview with Martin Bashir about his interview with Rob Bell: http://networkedblogs.com/fxXwm
He confirms that he is a professing Christian and that he does attend Redeemer.
Thanks for posting that interview; it was a great listen. I like the original interview more, now that I know Bashir was simply trying to expose weakness with his opening question.
Thank you Craig French for the audio interview link. I hope and pray that Bell also listens to it and sees the error of his ways. A millstone is not a good thing to have around your neck when you die.
Here's an excellent critique of Bell's interview with Lisa Miller of Newsweek. It's from podcast called "Fighting for the Faith" and this guy goes through the whole interview, stopping at points to call out the serious problems with Bell's theology. And that's just what it is, a theology he's created to suit his taste.
http://004f597.netsolhost.com/fftf/F4F031511.mp3
It's about 2 1/2 hours long, but it's worth a listen.
Is the following progress? Someone in my own church who I know has been a real fan of the NOOMA videos (and /The Shack/, for that matter), was telling me today that *Love Wins* had succeeded in completely ruining their interest in Rob Bell and his material.
Apparently once the universalism was made that obvious, enough was enough. Took a while, but they got it right in the end.
Dear David,
When I first heard Bashir's question, I thought, "That is a completely unfair question. It is neither." But just a few seconds later in the interview Bashir asks it right. I think Bashir just messed up when he asked the first question. The second time around he says, "So which of those is true? He's all-powerful and he cares. Or He cares and He's not all-powerful." As to Bashir's faith, there was a lot of discussion about that on Justin Taylor's blog.
>>The second time around he says...
I completely missed that change. Thanks.
Love,
You ask: "How do you think the Apostle Paul would deal with Pastors Hybels and Bell?"
Just speaking of Bell, I'm confident that Paul would not only throw him out of the ministry but out of the Church (i.e. handing him over to Satan in the hopes that he would repent). One of the problems we have in the Church today is that we want to treat things like this as deviant voices within Christianity when they are not Christian at all. Too many wimpy ministers are terrified that someone somewhere will call them fundamentalists simply for speaking the truth.
That said, I suspect that it is a stretch to call Rob Bell Wheaton's best and brightest. He is after all by his own admission not very smart and not a theologian. You have far more personal knowledge of Wheaton than I do, but I known a few truly outstanding graduates of their M.A. in Biblical Exegesis program. Whether they grew strong by fighting agains the non-sense they were being taught or they were strengthened through outstanding teachers I don't know. I do know that none of them would offer the sort of theological dribble that Bell is expousing.
Best wishes,
David
>>I suspect that it is a stretch to call Rob Bell Wheaton's best and brightest.
You're likely right, here, if "best and brightest" communicates brain smarts of a scholarly bent. But I was referring to street smarts and marketing smarts and the crafting of enticing images and cultural savvy.
May God give us men who wear "fundamentalist" as a badge of honor when it's used as a smear to intimidate them towards giving up their defense of orthodox Christian faith.
Love,
Pastor loses church because he agrees with Rob Bell's book
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42248810/ns/us_news-life/?gt1=43001
Chuck,
That was a good article for pointing up the problem with Bell and his ilk.
"I think justice comes and judgment will happen, but I don't think that means an eternity of torment," Holtz said. "But I can understand why people in my church aren't ready to leave that behind. It's something I'm still grappling with myself."
As the article notes, Bell is hard to pin down on some specifics. I don't think you really need specifics. I always begin to worry when I hear things like, "leave that behind", "catch up to the culture", etc.
And these guys mention God's forgiveness quite a lot but never anything we seem to be doing that requires forgiveness.
MY question to Bell would be "what are you going to say to all the Christians in countries where they are persecuted? I think of people like Richard Wurmbrand and all the folks in places like North Korea. What is the purpose of their martyrdom and suffering? Are they fools to suffer for Christ and risk death telling other about Jesus if there is no hell to fear?
I graduated from Wheaton in 1988. I have many dear friends who graduated with me and have done, and currently are doing, great work for God's Kingdom. I did have Dr.Bilezikian for a class during my time there and do not remember him as the heretic you are making him out to be. I will confess that it has been many years since my time there, but I am grateful for my time there and the skills I learned---to be a critical thinker and to put everything through a Christ-centered world view.
Stubled on your blog...I agree with much of what you say, but boy are you harsh. Major turnoff to those who may be seeking truth. I agree with most of Rush Limbaugh's ramblings, but I sure don't like him. The slam on Wheaton College is a stretch in logic and far reaching. I wont be back...
>>Major turnoff to those who may be seeking truth.
(Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Its really sad to hear Christians bashing Christians. Rob Bell and Dr. Bilizikian and Bill Hybels have done amazing thngs for decades to help Seekers come to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. Are they perfect? Do they have flaws? Do they make mistakes. Each would be the first to proclaim whole-heartedly 'yes'. But as for you... Jesus warned us not to judge, lest we be judged by the same standards. Evidently you think your assessment of these men is flawless. The Apostles warned not to be critical of fellow Christians who may not be at the same stage of development. Your blog depressed me today. I'm embarrassed for you as a fellow Christ-follower.
>>Rob Bell and Dr. Bilizikian and Bill Hybels have done amazing thngs for decades to help Seekers
The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
So, in summary, thinking is anathema...
Yes, Edwin, thinking is anathema.
Your mischaracterizations of Dr. Bilezikian, Wheaton, Pastor Hybels, and Willow Creek are bizarre and self-discrediting. I am well-acquainted with these Christ followers, and am myself a Wheaton M.A.. So I can tell you that your comments are unfair, unfounded, and quite unChristian. It is clear you know nothing about any of these men and institutions, much less of the relationship between them and Rob Bell.
May God have mercy on you and all those you wrecklessly mislead.
Dear Mr. Leigh,
I've gone and read the things you've written on the web and I have noted that you are a rebel against the authority God has decreed in the church and home. And beyond your rebellion against man's authority, in your writings you even go so far as to deny our Lord's submission to His Father!
Our Lord Himself was no rebel. While here on earth, He said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38).
Typical of your promotion of rebellion are these words you have written:
"No believer, pastor, elder, spouse, or group of believers is given authority over another believer anywhere in Scripture unless it is mutual, for the Lord alone is our Master; to him only are we ultimately accountable."
And:
"There is no principle of 'headship' operative between Church leaders and members. Christ is the only head of the Church."
This is not even to mention your blasphemies concerning the Trinity--I do not want to reproduce them here because they are so very evil.
Thus I'm not surprised to read that you work with that false shepherd Gilbert Bilezikian. He has corrupted you. He has led many astray and will answer to God for his destruction of sheep.
I commend you for signing your real name. Now you must repent. You are worshipping a God made in your own image--not the Only True God Who has revealed Himself to us Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Turn to the Only True God.
Love,
It is clear you understand what I've written even less that you do the scriptures, much less the scholars you've attacked.
Mr. Leigh your pretensions are ludicrous. I considered responding to your first post but I thought the blog authors should have first dibs on shooting fish in a barrel. And they're more patient than myself.
Your thoughts about the Biblical and Theological studies department at Wheaton are seriously flawed. Rob Bell was an English Literature major and received an MDIV from Fuller. Making assumptions about a faculty of 27 scholars based on an English major -who graduated some 20 years ago- is about the poorest evidence one could imagine. Before you attack the integrity of a pastor and a leading Evangelical institution please do accurate research. Ask any Wheaton student and they will tell you that the school is far from perfect- the key is to ask and talk to a student rather than to judge all 2400 of them based on one Alum, a single chapel service, and a former professor.
>>Rob Bell was an English Literature major and received an MDIV from Fuller.
Yes, Wheaton and Fuller produced this heretic who is destroying the sheep of God.
>>Making assumptions about a faculty of 27 scholars based on an English major -who graduated some 20 years ago- is about the poorest evidence one could imagine.
First, no assumptions here. Simple declarations and Bilezekian and Bell and Bilezekian's fruit demonstrated in Bill Hybels are just a part of the evidence. Wheaton is no mystery to me, particularly the disastrous Bible department.
Take, for instance, the much-vaunted Doug Moo serving as chairman of the Committee on Bible Translation that gave the world the bowdlerized version of Scripture titled the New International Version 2011. Doug Moo is Wheaton's Bible department and nothing is more clear than his leadership of this attack upon the Word of God.
This is just a part of my "accurate research." I grew up in Wheaton. My wife's and my parents are all Wheaton alumni. My daughter-in-law is a graduate. College Church in Wheaton is our home church. We've known Wheaton presidents and profs, and not long ago we had a member of the board of trustees for dinner with his wife and family members. There's much more, but any reasonable man will be satisfied by this summary.
There are many good Wheaton grads and many good Wheaton profs. Where you'd like them, though, is in the BIble department. As a matter of fact, you can't afford to have even a single bad prof there. Every last one of them should be rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
Love,
"Would he rebuke and warn against Pastor Joel Osteen, then salve his conscience that dealing with Pastor Osteen was all anyone could expect of him. Wheaton, Barrington, and Grand Rapids weren't his responsibility?"
For a moment I was starting to think I was one of the only people who also felt this way. I find it so ironic that people are even quick to avoid McLaren and Bell now, but not Hybels and Warren, specifically. They all speak at the same conferences and have a fascination with ecumenical movements to change the world in the form of eradicating diseases, while the Gospel takes a back seat.
Great post and good writing, sir.
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