R2K Man: "I'm not saying... something like abortion should be always and absolutely avoided in the pulpit..."

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(Tim) Another blog has now had over 500 comments made in an ongoing discussion with a couple R2K men and I am here pulling out a few excerpts for my own response. (I haven't been taking part in the other discussion so I didn't think it fair to jump in at this late date.)

These comments below are, I think, representative of what we've read by R2K men here on Baylyblog in months past. Put together, I think they're quite instructive. Readers who would like to check the context of these quotes can click through to the original discussion linked above.

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>>R2K MAN TO DAVID GRAY: "David Gray, pc-2k by definition doesn’t have a secret handshake or an official stance on abortion. But if you’re asking what this pc-2ker’s views are I am morally and politically opposed to abortion. But I’m just as opposed to those who make their own convictions on a particular issue a litmus test for orthodoxy, as in “those who don’t care like I care don’t really care and are unfaithful.” Tim and David Bayly on line two for you."

Here we have one of the canards R2K men repeat endlessly. My brother David and I have never said or even hinted that men who don't do what we do to end abortion are unfaithful. I have never indicated I myself am faithful in this area, nor would I ever do so. I know few pastors or elders I'd hold out as models of care for the least of these.

>>R2K MAN TO ONE OF HIS CORRESPONDENTS: "I’m not saying that pulpits have to stay away from abortion absolutely. What I am saying is that, to the extent that abortion is a highly politicized issue in 2011 America, Reformed pulpits should be much more conservative and cautious in what they say about it. ...Pulpits should be reserved for Christ and him crucified."

It's good to know R2K men are willing for pastors to apply God's Moral Law to the slaughter of the unborn. We'd be in quite a quandary if they demanded we "stay away from abortion absolutely."

>>R2K MAN TO TURRETINFAN: "...your notion that the church should preach Christ PLUS politics..."

Another R2K canard. No one has said pastors "should preach Christ PLUS politics...." But of course, since abortion is politicized, to preach and apply the Sixth Commandment to the lives of our parishioners is, according to R2K men, to "preach Christ PLUS politics." But that's their statement; not ours...

>>R2K MAN TO ONE OF HIS CORRESPONDENTS: "I’m not saying that something like abortion should be always and absolutely avoided in the pulpit. I’m saying that pulpits (at least those who think themselves conservative) should be much more careful about how they do it and not be so cavalier as to suggest that the last 35+ years in American legislation and culture never happened."

So R2K men say we should never try to turn back the clock to the day when every state of these United States had laws against slaughtering unborn babies. We must be realists and settle in for the long haul while holding precious our private convictions against the feticide. We should follow the precise example of the Germans who went to bed at night smelling the smoke of their incinerators while never giving serious consideration to those men so  cavalier as to suggest that they could turn back the clock to the halcyon days prior to the Third Reich. They were realists, although certainly they held precious their deeply personal religious convictions against genocide.

And if anyone asked them what they thought of the genocide, they'd be quick to indicate how they were personally opposed, but quite proud of their pastor's great care in avoiding such a politicized issue when he spoke from the pulpit.

>>R2K MAN TO TURRETINFAN: "...as long as “mass murder” is your concern, I wonder if you’d work this hard about sermons that want to say something about the injustice of pre-emptive war that takes the lives of civilians..."

Again, one R2K man demonstrates how deeply opposed he is to the wholesale slaughter of babies--one billion in the past few decades, alone--by comparing it to "the injustice of pre-emptive war that takes the lives of civilians." Let's assume every war is pre-emptive, then add up the deaths from all the wars of the past century.

World War I: 15 million
World War II: 75 million
Conflicts since 1945: 40 million
Total: 130 million

The total deaths from armed conflicts in the twentieth century was about a tenth of the number of unborn children murdered just in the past thirty five years or so.

But let's assume when our R2K defender wrote about "pre-emptive" wars that "take the lives of civilians," he was referring to the wars of the past twenty years in the Middle East. Then, what is our total?

First Gulf War: 150 thousand
War in Iraq: 1 million (most put it under 100 thousand; total deaths among Coalition troops and contractors are about 15 thousand; the figure of a million is from Johns Hopkins/Lancet)

In other words, all deaths from pre-emptive wars waged by these United States in the past two decades using the highest possible estimates and including civilians are between three and four percent of the number of babies slaughtered in that same time period in these United States alone. And if we conservatively figure the total abortion deaths worldwide every year to be somewhere around 50 million, the death toll from what our R2K man calls our "pre-emptive wars" would amount to about one quarter of one percent of the death toll from abortion.

>>R2K MAN TO ONE OF HIS CORRESPONDENTS: "Reformed pastors who think nothing of saying in their sermons or intercessory prayers something about the need to 'outlaw abortion' (outlawing is political and legislation language) what they’d make of others who would do the same with regard to the current war. The response is something akin to the idea that 'politics are inappropriate in the pulpit.'"

So again, R2K men compare the deaths from the First Gulf War and the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to the wholesale slaughter of the unborn, and they think they have a point. Only carelessness could issue in such a comparison of casualties.

>>R2K MAN TO ONE OF HIS CORRESPONDENTS: "Why do concerns over current reproductive legislation escape this analysis but those about war don’t? Maybe you’ll offer up something about how unjust war is within the purview of the church, but I’m more inclined to say that the spirituality of the church would have us keepp both politicl concerns at bay instead of finding a way to invite them both in."

To R2K men, efforts to end the wholesale slaughter of unborn babies are "concerns over reproductive legislation" that are "political" in nature.

>>R2K MAN TO ONE OF HIS CORRESPONDENTS: "...that which some consider a 'horrible social evil and holocaust...'"

Yes, quite right. It's true. "Some (of us) consider" abortion a "horrible social evil and holocaust."

>>R2K MAN TO ONE OF HIS CORRESPONDENTS: "(A preacher) should be very careful about (preaching on abortion), because like it or not, it is highly politicized. And if we’re serious about the spirituality of the church then it seems to me we’ll be sensitive to that fact."

Showing once again how zealous R2K men are for the purity of their gospel.

>>R2K MAN TO ONE OF HIS CORRESPONDENTS: "...some of us wonder the way you blister 2k..."

It's not "2k." The orthodox position held by the Reformers is 2k. This modern novelty is R2K.