Lady Education...

(Tim) Over on ClearNote Ladies Blog, our daughter, Michal Louise Crum, did a post titled, Do Women Need Less Education Than Men? If Samuel Johnson was right in his observation that you know you've hit your mark when you get a response, Michal hit the bull's eye.

At the center of her post were three questions she recommended to her readers in connection with the decision whether or not to go to college:

  1. What is the purpose? What is this education preparing me for?
  2. What are my motives? Am I pursuing education for the sake of education itself, a profession, money, status, the glory of God?
  3. How much will it cost? Is it a wise investment of time, money, and energy? If God leads me in a different direction two years down the road, will the debt incurred prevent me from obeying God’s call?

Pretty calm, huh? It's hard to imagine these questions eliciting screeches and howls--from women who claim the Name of Christ no less. But elicit they did. May I say how much I admire the women of our congregation? If you read the comments under Michal's post, you'll better understand why. For one thing, what grace under fire!

So what about ye olde college education?

I've read all the screeches and howls, and this is by far my favorite...

Our society runs on education. Voting, interacting with the community, and even raising families is being done on a level like never before. It's difficult to sit in your house with your kids and not interact with the outside world, and even if you manage to somehow pull this off, you have to at least understand what's going on around you (instead of just buying in to whatever you're fed by talk show hosts and news networks). Education is the key to better lives, to self-discovery, to understanding. It's what our very government is built on!

A gentleman would refrain from dissecting the corpse publicly, but a couple things demand to be whack-a-moled.

If we equate getting an education with getting a college degree, it's true "our society runs on education." The most beautiful building in Bloomington houses the IU Foundation. Perfectly sculpted Indiana limestone surrounded by a manicured landscape illustrate the fact that, other than government, higher education alone has the money to burn on such extravagance. Which is to say the real wealth of the Western world has been confiscated by the Academy. This is true financially, but when we stop to consider influence and leadership, also, the case becomes watertight.

So yes, "our society runs on education" and "even raising families is being done on a level like never before"--all thanks to our intellectual superiors.

We have them to thank for the slaughter of untold millions of the unborn. We have them to thank for the corruption of the morals of our sons and daughters in their dorms and frat houses and classrooms. We have them to thank for the sodomitic propagandizing of our elementary school students by graduates of their Schools of Education. We have them to thank for the lies streaming through our airwaves broadcast by our so-called public radio shows always appealing to those terminal degreed. We have them to thank for Christian mothers who give their best time to "changing the world" outside the home while their children lie dead in our sanitary landfills or in bondage at their day care centers, waiting for Mommie to come home. We have them to thank for Daddy being a house-husband, browbeat into it by his wife and all those Christian college profs who fomented her rebellion against God's Created Order. We have them to thank for the corruption of our children that is the necessary fruit of the absence of fathers' discipline and protection--a state of affairs that grew out of impotent sermons preached by pastors gelded by the academics they paid to give them a seminary education; by seminary profs who formed their students' ministerial affect and posture in such a way as to promote a form of Christian faith and discipleship that is devoid of the masculine principle, in which holiness is equated with womanliness.

Without doubt, "our society runs on education" and "even raising families is being done on a level like never before."

So by all means, send your impressionable daughter, fresh from your dining room table and kitchen, off to Wheaton where she may, without godly hindrance, be browbeaten until she willingly submits to the feminist shrills who love her and have a wonderful plan for her life. Upon graduation, you'll have the joy of seeing her travel three weeks a month, internationally; not wasting her time changing diapers, but rather looking for a cure for malaria and changing the whole wide world. Pursuing excellence, you know. This will allow you to look back, smugly patting yourself on the back for paying the tuition that allowed those feminist shrills and their willing helpers to beat all her feminine beauty out, replacing it with feminine leadership and authority and power and control and pride and command and self-direction and self-esteem and self-respect and self-worth and self-motivation and boundaries. Yes, don't forget those boundaries without which the Christian life would be not worth living.

Wasn't it P. T. Barnum who said no one's ever gone bankrupt underestimating the average intelligence of the American people? So let us march on, with eagle eye. Let us listen to and obey our superiors, paying our rightful patriotic allegiance to Wheaton and Taylor and Gordon and Covenant (both College and Seminary) and Calvin (both College and Seminary) and Westmont as, together with all their own pagan superiors at our nation's colleges and univeristies, they hold out their money and power and influence-grubbing hands, joining the refrain:

Not like the brazen (male) giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Let us acknowledge that all honor and glory and wisdom and power and might flow from and through Lady Education. Let us join in her worship with many thousands of our tax dollars each and every year, with our full attention when she deigns to speak or write, ex cathedra; with the human sacrifice of our sons and daughters; with a hundred thousand in tuition for each of our children; with million dollar bequests or charitable remainder trusts honoring our alma mater when we die; in fact, let us hold nothing back in our great devotion to Lady Education.

Didn't the Apostle Paul tell us man's wisdom is superior to the Word of God?

I sit writing in a coffee shop just up the tracks from Wheaton. And that bit about the woman who's traveling three weeks a month, internationally, doing science to find a cure for malaria? It was what her boyfriend just told me--word for word. He was sitting in the next seat over and we got talking. He loves her and waits for her to come home. He told me he earns $150 to $200 per week cleaning carpets.

And that bit about changing the world instead of changing diapers? It's a woman who graduated from Wheaton. And that bit about the pursuit of excellence? It's the president of a Christian college.

I wonder whether any woman in the middle of childbirth ever called her Christian college prof to let him in on the agony of her particular pursuit of excellence? Do Wheaton's female grads send in notes for the alumni magazine telling of the birth of each of their children, or do editors limit such announcments to female grads who get terminal degreed, tenure or a Templeton Genius grant?

Dear brothers and sisters, I couldn't be more proud of Mary Lee and each of our daughters--including Heidi. These godly women have chosen the Kingdom of God and its righteousness over the Kingdom of Man and its wickedness. And I think it worth noting that Michal was a National Merit scholar, but she didn't get a colleage degree. Instead, she chose to waste her life changing diapers and waiting for her husband to come home. He wrote with tears.

Comments

Yes, and Amen. Thank you, dear brother. May God richly bless and use you and all your family for His greater glory far beyond what you could ever ask or imagine.

Do women need less, or a very different, education than men? I'm leaning towards the latter.

BTW, on a light note, the hottest thing in quality engineering (my current trade) basically boils to "housekeeping." (5S) More or less, we have classes and initiatives to help factory workers and such learn to put things in their proper place and keep them there except when in use. Had this only been learned at Mother's knee instead of destroyed in the colleges and schools!

My husband and I sent in our son's birth announcement to my all-girls, Roman Catholic, college-prep academy high school. I graduated class of 2005 and he was born Feb 2008 when I should have been a junior in college. They "accidentally" misprinted my graduation year, stating that I had graduated 5 or 10 years earlier than I did (can't remember which.) Oops!

If I may be so bold I would say that the majority of women ( even in the christian realm) yearn for the money that goes along with the degree. The Bible says you cannot serve God and money, yet christain women don't like to admit that the reason they leave their children is for more money, materialism, etc. It's a alot harder and takes more godly character to be obedient to Him and be selfless. It's not easy to live on one income, but it can be done and is being done by some of us. I would challenge those who claim "they have to work" to give it up and only live on their husband's income. God will honor you for staying home with your children. Afterall, he's entrusted you to care for them. My intention is not to offend anyone, but rather encourage families to live more simply and realize that living on one income can be done.

Rmember the women who did not marry, my education allowed me to glorify God .

Suzi

Or the Christian women who /can't/ marry because there aren't enough decent Christian men to go round?

Seriously, we fix the problem hinted at in Suzi's post by better discipling of the single men, specifically the ones who seem to be falling off the radar (I get to deal with them), and by fixing our adult men's evangelism so that the single men's catchment, for want of a better word, is given a boost.

>Or the Christian women who /can't/ marry because there aren't enough decent Christian men to go round?

My experience was the reverse, more men and a relative dearth of godly women...

Promotion of education is the same for men and women, yet different. For men, it is so that they can avoid working with their hands. For women, it is to avoid being a wife. I have an education, and a blue collar job. I get a little miffed when all the stories in my college mag are about those who are saving the world.

The sacred ox of a college education was well and trully gored - I'm still cheering Michal for that post!

Tim, this brings to mind the howls of derision a while back over SWBTS' Home Ec degree, doesn't it? We want women to get a college education, but only a certain type of education is acceptable. Much better she should spend years in apprenticeship so she can become lead architect on the new art museum, or in writing legal briefs and handing down decisions on the way to becoming the next woman on SCOTUS, or even reading a stock ticker and investing other people's money; yes, much better that than investing time in learning how to turn a hem, bake a cake from scratch or upcycle someone's discarded chest of drawers, changing dirty diapers or wiping spit-up from your shoulder for the 22nd time in a day, right?

I can't help but recall one of my favorite quotes, from Alice von Hildebrand:

"When the time has come, nothing which is man-made will subsist. One day, all human accomplishments will be reduced to a pile of ashes. But every single child to whom a woman has given birth will live forever, for he has been given an immortal soul made to God's image and likeness."

I rejoice in knowing Mary Lee and your daughters and all the women like them at CGS as I rejoice over every birth I hear about - and I praise my God that, though I could never bear children myself, that you have so many women who faithfully and willingly do so for His Glory.

Kamilla

Denver, a choice to to avoid being a wife??? No, we single women prayed for a husband but was not given by God's plan for us. So.. to survive with a home etc., I went to work which was supported by my education. Please remember, God has a plan for some of us which does not include a husband and children. I relish in my Christian friends who are blessed with children and family.. Denver please do not lump all Christian working women together.

in Christ,

Suzi

To pick up on Denver's point, *are* Christian single women with an education using it as an excuse not to get married?

Much of the evidence is no. I know from my female friends that if the right man came along, the prospect of marriage and family would trump a career, any day.

However, what a career does do, is that it gives a woman more choices. In this case, my hypothesis is that while marriage & family would trump a career, a good career trumps what would be, on any objective basis, a bad marriage. So, the single Christian women I know have pushed on with their careers, knowing well that God can use them to bless others through their vocations, and thus work out a 'maternal calling', if at something of a remove.

As usual, comments and criticism of this idea welcome.

Well, also, the sad reality in our day and age is that with the ease of divorce and the ease with which even Christian couples can fall into this trap, it becomes important in some cases for a woman to be able to support herself if the worst happens. I can't recall her name right now but there is a lady out there who spent decades forcefully advocating that women stay at home and raise their families only to be divorced after her children had grown. she found herself largely unsupported and unemployable because she lacked any education and job experience. Hopefully, our Christian women will never be failed by their husbands in this way, but I think it's a point worth making- sadly in the modern age it's all too easy for this to happen.

If God doesn't bless a woman with a husband, and she instead insures against the future by getting a degree, then the next logical step would be adopting a China baby as the biological clock ticks away. I've seen this, and I was probably the only person in my church who thought it was a travesty.

Please remember that my OP was about getting an education, not getting a job. There are similarities between men and women here: both get an education so that they don't have to work with their hands.

Absolutely incorrect. I got an education so that I could teach kids how to play music, because I loved it and wanted to show other people how to do it. Avoiding manual labor was not a factor. One of the most educated people in my church is a surgeon, a man who has studied for more than a decade, and he works with his hands and on his feet as surely as anyone else. There are our pastors, who got an education because the Lord was calling them to shepherd his flock. I'm sorry, but I find your broad brush there completely implausible, and a little insulting. If God doesn't bless the woman with a husband, what SHOULD she do?

Dear Suzi,

There are many women who have been, and are, in your shoes. And many of them, like you, would be well-advised to consider a college education. I'm very happy you got one and have served our nation's public schools faithfully through the years.

What causes me concern is men and women who don't take sexual purity and their children into consideration in their educational and career choices. Thus, these matters, like most, are quite different for single men and women than those Christians who are married or about to be so.

As always, with much affection,

>>if the worst happens...

It is precisely this that leads most sincere Christian women and their parents astray. We can't be living by faith and prepare for the worst when it comes to Christian femininity and womanhood. By definition, womanhood is vulnerability, and once we train our daughters to live in such a way as to be invulnerable to divorce, death, adultery, prison, etc., we have stopped walking by faith and are leading our daughters to stop, also.

Nowhere is the matter of faith so clear for the Christian woman and her parents (and husband) as this question of education and career. The time of our lives doesn't allow for a mother to be a lawyer and a lawyer to be a mother. Similarly with physicians and a host of other jobs. Nor can most Christian women postpone marriage many years and, today in America and in college and university communities far from their home and home church, do so while maintaining sexual purity.

Faith always means choices to depend on God rather than our own schemes, and to give ourselves vulnerably to His calling and path. And "what ifs" are antithetical to the life of faith. We can't prepare to live; we must live. Now. On the straight and narrow path.

Love,

>> If God doesn't bless the woman with a husband, what SHOULD she do?

She should work, as surely as a wife and mother works. And often, this means she should get trained for work she's gifted for in college or a professional school. But if so, she shouldn't stop being a woman and ordering her life in femininity in such a way as to please God Who made her woman, not man.

Two things, here: first, we must not always take these discussions into a consideration of singleness and its attendant challenges. Joe Sobran often referred to the modern morbid habit of sacrificing the normal on the altar of the abnormal. Most of God's people are married and have children. Discussing those challenges and what faith looks like in those callings is no insult to singles and that discussion must be free to happen without singles demanding the discussion turn to them. Or worse, being insulted and getting angry that the discussion is happening at all.

The Apostle Paul was single and wrote and thought and gave himself to helping the married and parents. This is one of the key responsibilities of singles in the Church. They are to forget themselves and serve the wives and mothers and husbands and fathers of the church, just as the Apostle Paul and Jesus did.

Second, if we are to discuss womanhood and marriage or singleness, today it would be much better to start out asking what those women SHOULD NOT do, because of their womanhood, than what they SHOULD do. Is there any training, any education, any career that's off limits because of the Order of Creation? Any at all?

Believers are too defensive about discussions of what women ought not to do, today. Scripture discusses it, and in pretty general or inclusive terms. Why can't we? Are we really so faithless that we leave it alone?

Love,

Excellent, Tim. Thank you.

I sometimes think the old Orthodox tradition has something to teach us - if you weren't married by 30, you were to enter a religious community. Such communities could be a tangible reminder that we are to maintain sexualt purity and, "forget [ourselves] and serve the wives and mothers and husbands and fathers of the church, just as the Apostle Paul and Jesus did."

But instead of that sort of singles community, too many of our Evangelical churches have singles "ministries" which mold single adults to fits the world's ways by fostering perpetual adolescence and winking at sexual sin.

Kamilla

Tim- love that! That really put my head in a new perspective, the idea of sacrificing the normal on the altar of the abnormal. That often happens in the debate over abortion--I have heard people split hairs for hours over the case of a married mother of two pregnant with her third child, with the pregnancy endangering her life and almost certainly the baby's as well, when we ignore the reality of what 99% of abortions are and what our culture that fosters this practice has become. Thank you for sharing that!

"It is precisely this that leads most sincere Christian women and their parents astray. We can't be living by faith and prepare for the worst when it comes to Christian femininity and womanhood. By definition, womanhood is vulnerability, and once we train our daughters to live in such a way as to be invulnerable to divorce, death, adultery, prison, etc., we have stopped walking by faith and are leading our daughters to stop, also."

What a great reminder, one not only for the beginning of our married lives, but all the days thereafter. Do we strive to feel secure because we have all our "ducks in a row", with every possible financial safety net "just in case"(and isn't that how the pagans live? Mt. 6:32), or because God has promised to provide for all our needs when we seek first His Kingdom? Mt. 6:33.

I wonder if the current debacle in our country is, in God's providence, hitting us in this area to teach us more about walking by faith. 2 Cor. 5:7. Do we trust God enough to pattern our marriages so that we wives can be "keepers at home" without a back-up plan, "just in case" God doesn't come through for us? Titus 2:4-5

Blessings,
Nancy

My son wants an educated bride. Not because he would want or need her to work outside the home but because he wants a worthy companion who would be able to have discussions with him on intellectual topics as well as be well trained to homeschool any children.

It is wise to consider specifics when considering higher education but when God thought up the idea of helpmeets He had more in mind than just changing diapers, as important as that is.

By the way, a lot of what I see on this blog is supposed to be taught by us older women,according to Scripture. Hmm.

>My son wants an educated bride. Not because he would want or need her to work outside the home but because he wants a worthy companion who would be able to have discussions with him on intellectual topics as well as be well trained to homeschool any children.

Indeed. It is debatable whether time spent at most universities would enhance or diminish the likelihood of a woman being fit for the duties you mention.

Nancy - I take your point, and Tim's as well, but as long as you have more women than men in the Christian singles' community - and as one gets older, the numerical 'overhang' becomes more and more pronounced - then questions about women and education are not going to go away. The other thing is that as single women get saved in their twenties, as a good number do, many (most) of them will be coming in with an education anyway.

My own pastor has a more encouraging attitude to his singles, all of us. His outlook is to see what we /can/ do, including (for the men) being in leadership. And - if we as individuals are in the will of God - how can our situations be described as 'abnormal'?

:-)

"My son wants an educated bride. Not because he would want or need her to work outside the home but because he wants a worthy companion who would be able to have discussions with him on intellectual topics as well as be well trained to homeschool any children."

Error #1: intellectual topics of conversation are only accessible to those who've purchased a college degree. In other words, high school graduates can say nothing of interest to college graduates. Really?

Error #2: a wife can replace the need for male camaraderie. In speaking of a worthy companion with whom he may carry on intellectual conversation, it sounds almost like he's seeking a husband (albeit a stay-at-home-to-homeschool-the-children-type husband). Some needs a wife should not be expected to meet--a man needs friends who are men. Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. A wife is for something else.

Error #3: by saying that God had more in mind than changing diapers you seem to be using the common ploy of casting homemaking and mothering down because surely "being a woman is more than that." But God says that a woman is not less than that. Keeping a home and raising a godly seed is a glorious business that is done well and creatively by the many woman who even at this late will not despise the work as mean, common and boring.

"By the way, a lot of what I see on this blog is supposed to be taught by us older women,according to Scripture. Hmm."

Error #4: while no one can safely pin down the meaning of "hmmm" it may be that some will interpret this line as meaning that since older women are commanded in Scripture to teach on womanhood, that men should butt out. The overlooked problem with this line of thought is that a man wrote that Scripture. If older women are teaching younger women the very opposite of what Paul prescribed, pastors, younger women and, really, anyone else who can still read and believe the Bible, ought to pipe up by telling the truth.

Connie - I can see where your son is coming from. Being "equally yoked" means more than the fact that both parties are Christians, or even Reformed Christians. At any rate, I know of many good Christian marriages which display the pattern which your son is wishing to emulate. I think most of us do!

I think the concerns about sending young women (or men) off to college in today's world are valid, and the concerns about the rampant careerism among women are also valid. But I'm not sure that a college education per se for women should be viewed as negative or necessarily has to result in a career for her. I remember reading one time in a Focus on the Family publication that years ago, someone was sending his daughter to college, back when girls would get married right out of college and not think about working once they got married. Someone asked the father why he was sending his daughter to college since she was "only" going to get married and settle down, and he said, "When you educate your son, you educate a man, but when you educate a daughter, you educate your grandchildren." That was because the mother tends to be the one who passes on her education to her children, maybe moreso than the father. My father insisted that I go to college, and I have treasured my college education; I also feel that my children have benefited from my education, even as I have stayed home and educated them. At the same time, I went to college in a place and time a little removed from today's world; I lived in a girls' dorm and actually had a housemother and a curfew. Girls were much better looked after at college once upon a time than they are now. Even my grandmother went away to college, but she had to have written permission from her father when she went to a friend's home for the weekend. So I don't think it's the college education that's the problem; I think it's our culture. And I realize that a girl with a high school education may have a better education than many girls with a college education these days. But sometimes the advanced educational experience enables a girl to be a better wife, depending on what her husband does. At the same time, universities have changed a lot, and are certainly not the best environments for a lot of kids anymore.

I should say I had some excellent profs at Columbia Bible College, UW Madison, and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. But even then, they were the exception to the rule and education has only become more toxic in the intervening years. (Read Bloom's jeremiad, "The Closing of the American Mind.)

Also, I think an education is absolutely essential for proper fatherhood and motherhood. But like Twain, I'm not much on allowing school to subvert my children's education.

Finally, I'm not opposed to women going to college, any more than I'm opposed to men going to college. But if they go, it ought to be a place where they can get an education, not an indoctrination. A place like New St. Andrews, for instance.

Love,

Great comments and really food for thought as the father of four particularly two daughters. Thank you Tim for bringing this subject up.

Regarding a woman glorifying God in her career; maybe, but consider the six figure debts often incurred in the process. If you're a young lady with a quarter million bucks in debt and no assets, the option of marrying a construction worker and being a stay at home mom is off the table.

And yes, the church suffers for this, as do any children born to that professional woman. I'd heartily recommend NSA for those who want their daughters to think--and for that matter, Veritas Press and some good books written by the head of NSA and others on the subject. Increasingly, even the best "liberal arts" colleges do not educate.

(if you want proof of this, ask a typical liberal arts grad what the liberal arts are....)

Excellent points, Bike Bubba. My father couldn't believe what courses my daughter had to take in her "liberal arts" college; when he went to college, the liberal arts were still the liberal arts. And also when I went. No more.

Praise God for Lady Ignorance! I love the idea of not educating the mind that God gave you!

Most of the women you see at Wheaton will give birth to children. You needn't worry that they'll miss out on the joys of diapering. Have you ever experienced those joys yourself, or are you just guessing about how fun it is?

Traveling internationally? How fun!
Seeking a cure for a disease that kills millions? That is truly God's work. I wonder how He feels about you discouraging women from helping others in this way.

Though women are told to be helpmeets, there is nothing in Scripture from preventing them from doing other things.

It is only old men, uncomfortable with the thought of women's freedom, that wants to stop a woman from finding a cure for a disease.

Young girls who have been raised properly have nothing to fear from the feminists who terrify you. They are not so powerful, guys.

>My son wants an educated bride. Not because he would want or need her to work outside the home but because he wants a worthy companion who would be able to have discussions with him on intellectual topics as well as be well trained to homeschool any children.

>Indeed. It is debatable whether time spent at most universities would enhance or diminish the likelihood of a woman being fit for the duties you mention.

Yes, her time would be better spent caring for her younger siblings, waiting for them to wake from their naps, doing the laundry, loading the dishwasher. THAT will certainly prepare her to be a worthy companion for future husband, and a skilled homeschool mom. I'd sure she'd have a lot of interesting stuff to say to an educated, intelligent man of vision.

"Error #2: a wife can replace the need for male camaraderie. In speaking of a worthy companion with whom he may carry on intellectual conversation, it sounds almost like he's seeking a husband (albeit a stay-at-home-to-homeschool-the-children-type husband). Some needs a wife should not be expected to meet--a man needs friends who are men. Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. A wife is for something else."

The above is so mind-bogglingly awful as to leave me (nearly) speechless. What a vile way to demean those human beings who happen to be women. What are intelligent women to do? Bury themselves with inferior minds? Self-medicate with alcohol or drugs to calm the energy of their minds? Guilt themselves into believing that they are wrong for knowing as much or more than their husbands?

There exist plenty of problems with our current higher-education system, but the commenter quoted above would do well to realize that some men are so wise as to choose wives who not only love them, and serve God, but also challenge, interest, and engage their minds. Not all women are peasants merely capable and kind, many are not only capable and kind but also witty, learned, wise and accomplished. Such women are challenging to most and scary to those who want to control them, but they are also most likely to further the work of Christ

All humans can benefit from better education, not just the males, and not just their own. Call for reformation in higher education. Better yet, work for it! But you exclude women to your own detriment. Only when they are educated and strong will men be all they ought to be.

> I'd sure she'd have a lot of interesting stuff to say to an educated, intelligent man of vision.

I imagine she would. Ironically I can't imagine an educated, intelligent man of vision would be able to tolerate the irrational frantic handwaving you have engaged in here.

Goodness! It was a close-run thing there. Before Janine stopped by to set us straight, I never would have known this discussion was all about "Lady Ignorance".

Of course, without Amanda we never would have known that without a university education a woman is incapable of being challenging, interesting and mind-engaging. Or that one of the few alternatives to higher education is alcohol.

On the other hand, Amanda does rather make me wonder if such a higher education is really all that valuable if a few words from Andy Halsey (Andy, by the way, bravo for your wisdom above!)are powerful enough to leave her "nearly" speechless. Goodness, if that is her condition, how engaging, challenging and intelligent can she really be?

Kamilla

"On the other hand, Amanda does rather make me wonder if such a higher education is really all that valuable if a few words from Andy Halsey (Andy, by the way, bravo for your wisdom above!)are powerful enough to leave her "nearly" speechless. Goodness, if that is her condition, how engaging, challenging and intelligent can she really be?"

Maybe Amanda is a graduate of a higher education facility like the lovely UC Berkeley. The students there are so naive as to stage a protest a few months ago, even blocking one of the major freeways as they waved signs demanding a "free" education.

The poor dupes are obviously products of their Marxist professors, who could at least disabuse their students of the notion that their UC Berkeley education could ever be "free". Unless, of course, said professors agreed to teach at no charge with no benefits. Anyone want to guess how long we will be waiting for that to happen?

1 Cor. 1:18-19
Nancy

I'm sorry I bothered to comment. A few points though.

Andy's "wisdom" in point #2 included the clear implication that a woman was not a fit companion for a man who wanted challenging conversation. That a man should seek such engagement and stimulation only from his male friends because "a wife is for something else". That attitude is misguided. Many times a wife is as intelligent (or more) than her husband and this can be a great blessing to both of them. Some women thrive on the challenges of higher education and this too can be a great blessing.

I quite agree that the church needs to be teaching it's sons and daughters to be wiser in their educational choices and that we all need to be working to make better options available. I consider the work of the Wilson's and their church in Moscow to be one of the great blessings God has given my generation and know many people educated at Logos and New St. Andrew's.

The snark and misreading of both Kamilla and Nancy quite surprised me. Not having posted here before I don't know if that is the norm. I am not a graduate of UC Berkely, I am a graduate student at Boise State. I am a wife and a mother, submitted to God and my husband. I too embrace and proclaim the foolishness of the cross. I am your sister.

Amanda,

I am thankful that we agree about the blessing the work of those in Moscow, ID is to this generation. Can we agree that the work they are doing looks nothing like what most people picture when they hear the phrase, "higher education"? Can we also agree that Cosmos and Valium are not the only alternative to "higher education"?

I do happen to have both a university degree (BS) and a seminary degree (MA) but I can thankfully say that I have learned more about being a godly woman, a wife and a mother (though I am neither of the latter two, yet) from the women in Bloomington like Michal Crum.

Amanda, I think you are misreading Andy's comment. There are things gentlemen talk about which are....by and large....not generally of interest to their wives. Unfortunately, too many colleges seek to make men out of women, don't they?

This has a lot to do, really, with the fallacy #1 of Alex's; that someone doesn't have something interesting to say unless they have a college degree. Going by that idea, we would then assume that no one would ever study anything by Washington, Lincoln, Truman, Limbaugh, Gates, or....

....any of the apostles save Paul. I would submit to you that an average homeschooling mom would have far more of interest to say--if she prepares for her students--than most any PhD from Harvard, Stanford, or Berkeley.

BTW, asked a Hahvid man and a Yalie (my brother and his wife) what the liberal arts were....they had no clue. The graduates of 300 years ago would be appalled that Ivy Leaguers would hardly know Aristotle's mentor from fake, colored clay.

Actually, I think there is part of this problem tat we haven't quite worked through, tho' I may be wrong.

If motherhood is the highest goal of a Christian woman, then fatherhood must also be the highest goal of a Christian man. I think that stands to reason. The SBC's Russell Moore posted some time ago (can't find the reference at the moment) that we need to push our young men (ie before they are ready to start courting) of the glory of being a father.

For the avoidance of any doubt, I was certainly brought up in the view that the highest thing that I could aim for as a Christian male was a Family Man. But I wonder how well this has been worked through with the younger generation. My point is that if we have not been doing this, then it may not be a surprise that women are opting for education. So, we might have been giving the *men* too much focus on getting an education. The other point is that if young men end up in debt from an education, this may also be a significant discouragement to family formation, if not marriage.

Comments, criticisms welcome.

I still vehemently disagree with Andy's comment that a man seeking a "worthy companion with whom he may carry on intellectual conversation" is not looking for a wife but for a "husband". What exactly do you imagine disqualifies a woman from being a companion in intellectual conversation? What is unwomanly, unwifely, ungodly, or wrong about that? What makes the domain of the intellect male?

"There are things gentlemen talk about which are....by and large....not generally of interest to their wives." - Indeed Bike Bubba, there are. In your house it may be bikes, in another man's his fly-fishing, in another's his studies into textual variants of Melville's books. Likewise a woman may be interested in things her husband is not. However the overlapping of interests is not always divided along gender lines and it does not need to be. Further, intellectual interests are simply not tied to sex. It may be a priority to a man or woman to seek a spouse that shares their particular interests or not, but it far more commonly is natural for spouses of similar intellectual ability to seek one another out. A wide disparity in education or IQ is not often workable for close companions.

"too many colleges seek to make men out of women" - I really don't know if this is true or not. I do know that the "pomo-sexuality" of Western culture is frankly insane, but let us agree that there is nothing unfeminine about intelligence and knowledge.

Amanda,

No one here *ever* said there was something unfeminine about intelligence!

What *is* being questioned is the cultural assumption that a university education is the only way to acquire such knowledge and the ability to converse intelligently with one's husband. Frankly, I'd also question your contention that, "A wide disparity in education or IQ is not often workable for close companions."

Among my family and friends, the happiest and most contented marriage and the most peaceful home belongs to a couple where he has a PhD and she is a college drop out. Being a worthy wife has nothing to do with formal education and everything to do with godliness, humility, grace and wisdom.

Kamilla,

I was not engaging with the original post though. I was objecting to Andy's point #2. Which I still contend is asinine, both for it's assumptions about gender and for it's assumptions about marriage.

I concur with Amanda when she says that Andy's point #2 was asinine.

Song of Songs 5:16 has the Beloved say of her lover, "This is my lover/this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem" (NIV). To say of the woman I married, "this is my lover/this is my friend", expresses perfectly what I am looking for in Christian marriage. As I said above, I have seen many a good Christian marriage where we see that intellectual match; it may not require university, but these days, university or other tertiary education for Christian women is common, if not universal.

(The things you learn, being on a Christian Internet dating site ;-) )

Ross,

I think you've actually just proven Andy's point. Somehow, I don't think the lovers of SOS were worried about whether or not they were a suitable intellectual match.

Kamilla

Amanda; I would agree that there is nothing unfeminine about intelligence or knowledge, but I would posit that there is at the same time too little correlation between college and the same.

Ross, seeing that Solomon was (except for our Lord) the wisest man that ever lived, it would seem unlikely that the Shulammite was his intellectual match, to put it mildly. Never mind the fact that when I am commenting to my wife on her femininity, I'm sorry, but the portion of my being which is engaged at that time is NOT my intellect.

Yeah, ... I am possibly guilty of quoting the passage somewhat out of context, but I was looking for a way of expressing where I have been coming from w.r.t Christian marriage. I think the rest of what I said is clear enough?

Since the church should take care of the uneducated widows, I wonder how much money the Bayley brothers are donating to families who have lost their spiritual leader?

Unless the Bayleys are willing to take care of these women and children, I find it surprising that they want widowed moms to be lacking in job skills.

In their world, widows will be consigned to low wage jobs while their children languish in day care. All because the Bayleys found the idea of competing with women in the workforce to be really scary.

Is it wrong that college is just a great experience all around for all? I'm not referring to binge drinking, drunken sex and all of the negative aspects. I'm talking about the life-long frienships that are cultivated. Life lessons learned through trial, error, hardwork, tears and laughs. Entering as an adolescent and exiting a mature adult prepared for whatever life brings. Learning to think critically and finding your path. Why is this bad for women?

Well, all I know is my son would like to be able to discuss Kierkegaard with whomever he marries. I'm not kidding.
I'm not naive-I understand what moral cesspools many universities can be. But not every institution of higher learning is a cesspool. And as we are commanded to love the Lord with all our mind just as much as with the rest of ourselves, a welltrained mind is a boon. The Apostle Paul had one and I daresay the Lord was able to use it.

One other point. When I married my own husband we totally intended that I be a stay at home mother. During times when the children were young circumstances dictated that I seek paid employment. Because of my own lack of training I wound up working in restaurants-which I assure you, were not places of great peace and edification. (Evangelism, yes, but I doubt most of you would have liked your daughters being in that atmosphere.)

I beseech those of you with young daughters not to turn up your nose at their obtaining some sort of career training. That is not lack of faith, that is wisdom! If it is a skill that can be exercised in the home, that's even better-but do not assume that the Lord will never put your daughter in a position where she has to work for pay. That, my friends, is presumption.

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