What separation of church and state looks like...

ParkStreetBullhorn (Tim, w/thanks to Bob P.; this happened a year ago, but I'd not heard of it) Reformed isolationists like to think the barbarians sacking the West will leave them alone if they keep church and state separate and don't go meddling in public morality. But it's a Faustian bargain. There never has been such a thing as separation of church and state, and never will be. Presently, Christians believe the push for pluralism and diversity and tolerance is sincere and will protect the people of God in our private judgments and ministries and worship, but it won't...

Not so long after the Covenant Theological Seminary prof calls for the repeal of sodomy laws, he'll face the next demand that he repudiate ex-gay therapy and ministries. No matter the stripe, there's always a next step to godless rebellion. What first started as a simple demand that rigid conservatives who rejected woman's ordination exercise tolerance toward those churches that ordained woman officers soon turned into the discipline of any church or pastors who refused to participate in the ordination of women. Thus, right now...

the PC(USA) expels all men and churches who honor Scripture's prohibition of woman officers, and the CRC is fast moving in the same direction.

Sodomy's the same. Despite our carefully nuanced, missional talk of the necessary distinction between a homosexual identity and homosexual practice; and despite our making common cause with sodomites in the repeal of all the states' anti-sodomy laws; when we've shown ourselves tolerant and enlightened, and publicly repudiated homophobia, we'll wake up to find the sodomites putting bullhorns to our windows, disrupting our church ministries; then raping congregants caught on Boston Common as night falls.

The Lord commanded us to be salty and to let our light shine. When we hide His light under a bushel and seek to fit in and nuance His Word and authority, all our talk of separation of church and state that we've used to justify that truce will get us nothing and nowhere.

We are privileged to trust God and preach the Gospel as He commanded. By His grace, may He make it so we have no place to run and no place to hide.

Comments

Tim, you guys still don't get it. I agree that the church should not compromise its witness. But the separation of church and state is not the cause of or justification for it. Machen advocated the separation of church and state and do you think he backed away from difficult positions?

The point of separating church and state is to draw upon all citizens -- Mormons, Jews, Roman Catholics, and non-Christians -- who support laws that enforce moral standards.

"...then raping congregants caught on Boston Common as night falls."

Just to clarify, is your claim that many, or most, gay people would do this? Or the ones in this protest? I'm unsure of what the purpose of this addition, except for inflammatory rhetorical purposes.

Unsure of the purpose of that addition? Read Genesis 19. Sins have trajectory and when the Church can't (or won't) so much as open her mouth to oppose evil, will evil

a) Just go away
b) Happily stay contained in just a few bad/misunderstood/hurting/?? folks
c) become good
d) grow and consume more souls until Boston Common becomes like Sodom itself

The church was being terrorized, the state did nothing -- sounds like a definite separation-thing going on there.

Militant homosexuality: a good reason to oppose rampant unisex practices among believers.

We don't want them blurring distinctions, but we can, and don't think it contributes to all the confusion out there.

>>do you think he backed away from difficult positions?

No, but that's asking me to grant that you and other spirituality of the church/R2K men have Machen's courage and principles. This I can't grant.

Rather, it's been my experience that those I have known are entirely passive at the gaps in the wall. And at times, worse than passive. Some I've watched work to tear the wall down themselves.

Love,

Another, local, example of what this sort of opposition looks like.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/Antigay-bishop39s--job-sparks.6386273.jp

Dear Tim,

On what grounds can you stand by your statement?:

"when we've shown ourselves tolerant and enlightened, and publicly repudiated homophobia, we'll wake up to find the sodomites putting bullhorns to our windows, disrupting our church ministries; then raping congregants caught on Boston Common as night falls."

How do you envision the sodomites putting bullhorns to your windows and raping congregants caught on Boston Common as night falls? Do you also have the same fear about greedy people infilterating in your church and causing the same sort of damage? What about the self-righteous?

Yours,

Lucas

>What about the self-righteous?

It is rather ironic but open sodomites are among the most self-righteous people you will encounter.

>>How do you envision the sodomites putting bullhorns to your windows and raping congregants caught on Boston Common as night falls?

I don't have to "envision it." I see it in the pic above (sodomite putting bullhorn to window of Park Street Church) and in Scripture (Sodom's sodomites trying to beat down Lot's door in order to commit sodomite rape against Lot's house-guests).

Perhaps, though, Scripture doesn't help you envision things?

>>Do you also have the same fear about greedy people infilterating in your church and causing the same sort of damage?

Similar, but not "the same sort of damage." Scripture helps me envision greedy people pouting in bed, motivating their wife to murder me and steal my vineyard.

>>What about the self-righteous?

I never worry about this. The Pharisees and Sadducees are long gone, so this problem is no threat to us, today.

Then too, no Covenant Seminary professor is arguing in the print media that laws against greed and self-righteousness should be repealed. He only wanted sodomy to be legalized.

But more to the point, why did you lie about your name and e-mail address? Man up and tell us your real name, would you please?

* * *

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

lucask1178999@yahoo.com

Technical details of permanent failure:

Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 554 554 delivery error: dd This user doesn't have a yahoo.com account (lucask1178999@yahoo.com)

>>...Lucas is my alias. I never reveal my real name on such a blog due to personal reasons and for my own physical safety. For my safety, I am unable to describe the reasons on such a public platform. Thank you for your understanding.

Dear Lucas,

Those of us who write here suffer for our convictions, but still own them by name--first and last. Do you not understand the cost we pay for the love of God and our neighbor which leads us to speak God's truth to you and others? Do you remember the Apostle Paul's plaintive inquiry, since repeated by pastors across two thousand years: "So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?" (Galatians 4:16)

So no, you may not use an alias. It is wrong to do so and I won't encourage you in what is most likely complicity in your sin. And were I inclined to think it wasn't sin, I would not have found your private e-mail address also to be false.

As I said, man up to your commitments and speak the truth publicly, without shame.

Love in Christ,

Tim Bayly]

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