Veritas Forum's Tim Keller on sodomy: "It's not good for human flourishing"...
(Tim) My parents gave most of their lives to campus ministry. The first IVCF staffers in New England back in the forties, they lived in Cambridge and were responsible for all of New England. I grew up going to Bear Trap Ranch and Cedar Campus--IV's camps for student leadership training--and listening to Dad teach the Word of God.
And now, for most of our ministry Mary Lee and I have served in college and university contexts. We started in Madison, Wisconsin; moved to Boulder, Colorado; then on to Boston; and now, for the past eighteen years, here in Bloomington, Indiana, where half the population of 70,000 or so is connected to Indiana University. Our church is filled with IU undergrad and graduate students, as well as profs and other IU employees.
So it's not from inexperience concerning the spiritual needs of the Academy that I say I've never been much of a fan of Veritas Forum. Well-intentioned, yes; but largely ineffective. Watching it over the years, including here in Bloomington, I'd say the main effect it has is allowing evangelical Christians who have been silent and compromised academics on their own campus to thump their chests for a week while hired guns come in and clean up the town. But with one exception--Walter Bradley, if you're curious--the hired guns seem pretty tame when it comes to their ability and willingness to pull the trigger. So, unlike the Apostle Paul's itinerant ministry, nothing much gets cleaned up.
Few places are as evil and so desperately need a clear and bold witness to sin, righteousness, and judgment--and then, to the wisdom and glory of the Cross of Jesus Christ--than the Academy...
As I'm fond of pointing out, the Apostle Paul didn't mince words in his proclamation of the Gospel in that first-among-all-intellectual-centers-of-the-world, Athens. His message was sin, righteousness, judgment, the Cross, the Resurrection, and God's condemnation of their "ignorance" (which in the past He'd overlooked), followed by a clarion call to repentance in the face of the certain coming Day of Judgment.
Compare a run-of-the-mill Veritas Forum talk and you'd have a hard time finding the Apostle Paul's Apostolic witness, courage, and authority. I certainly didn't hear it when Veritas came here to Indiana University.
But here's another example in the form of a transcript of Tim Keller being interviewed as part of the Veritas Forum at Columbia University. The subject is sodomy--that darling of every academic looking for some lower cause through which to stake his claim to moral enlightenment. Note carefully what is said as well as how it's said. As always, the only true sinner is that judgmental Christian who is not as enlightened in the way he presents the Gospel as our champion. Elder brother is the evil one trotted out as our public whipping boy. It may have been a better question for the interviewer to ask Tim whether being an elder brother is a sin and whether elder brothers are going to Hell? Anyhow...
What the Academy needs today is men who are fearless in proclaiming sin, righteousness, and the coming judgment in the context of the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ to desperate sinners like us. And these men should normally be those who are followers of Jesus Christ who work on campus; His slaves who can't help but be faithful in speaking of His holiness and mercy in their classrooms, faculty offices, faculty senate meetings, on the walkways from classroom building to classroom building, and so on.
In other words, what the Academy needs today are uncompromised and bold Christians whose consciences and hearts and minds and tongues are owned by their Lord and who, consequently, never stop proclaiming His Word, perfectly contextualized for their own world and campus.
So, with that as the introduction, here's the aforementioned transcript of Tim Keller's interview concerning sin, righteousness, and the coming judgment.
Following the transcipt is a Spurgeon excerpt pertinent to the subject, followed by the video this transcript was taken from. Both the Spurgeon excerpt and the transcription were sent to me by a longtime member of Redeemer in NYC.
* * *
EISENBACH: ……I wrote a book about the gay rights movement because I was appalled by the oppression and the discrimination against homosexuals in my America [KELLER: uhhmm..]. And this questioner asks, ‘What do so many of the churches have against homosexuals? And what about your church’s approach to homosexuality, is it a sin? Are they going to Hell?
KELLER: uhhh…let’s talk about my church first which will be a little easier than trying to answer for all the other churches of the world….but I’ll try [AUDIENCE LAUGHTER]. I’m representing all the churches of the world alright, you know? [EISENBACH: but Christianity I mean….you, you…] Yeah, I know but let’s start with mine.
EISENBACH:…. You go to the Bible quite often and there are many evangelicals who would say it is listed as a sin in the Bible [KELLER: sin in the Bible, right.]…and these people are going to Hell.
KELLER: Right. Now…What you..first…ughhhh…Let’s talk about my church again [nervous laughter]. Let’s go back here. What we would say is…I think it’s unavoidable. I think most Protestant and Catholic and Orthodox Christians over the years have said, you read the Bible and the Bible has reservations. The Bible says homosexuality is not God’s original design for sexuality. Ok? There we are…you have it. The Bible also says, ‘Love your neighbor’. The Bible…in fact, The Good Samaritan parable which is how Jesus tells us to love our neighbor…you put a Jew and a Samaritan there. So, what Jesus is trying to say is everybody is your neighbor. Gay people are your neighbors. Uhhh…people who are of other faiths are your neighbors. People of other….. other…uhhhh….uhhh…races are your neighbors. And it’s the job of a Christian to do what Jesus did on the cross which was to give himself for people who were opposing Him and people who were diff….believe….didn’t believe in Him even. And so, a Christian is supposed to say, ‘I serve the needs and interests of all of my neighbors in the city, whether gay or straight, whether Hindu or Muslim. I mean Hindus, for example, don’t believe in the Trinity. It’s a different view than what the Bible says. Gay people have a different view of sexuality than generally what you see in the NT. I’m supposed to love my neighbors. So, what I don’t see is…at this point, I see some churches that are…basically, ignoring the places in the Bible that talk about homosexuality in order to love their gay neighbor. And I see other Christian churches taking very seriously what the Bible says about homosexuality but in a very self-righteous way. So, they actually do single out gay people. I mean, there are a number of conservative churches that will love their Hindu neighbors and will love their Muslim neighbors, and not their gay neighbors. And I really don’t think there is any excuse for that. So…that’s what [EISENBACH: Is…is] I mean, I…I….Therefore, I have to take some responsibility for being a member of the Christian Church for the oppression of homosexuals.
EISENBACH: Are committing homosexual acts sin….against God?
KELLER: uhhhh….What do you mean by ‘sin’? The answer is ‘yes’.
EISENBACH: Yes.
KELLER: Now see. Here’s the problem with that. You don’t go to Hell for being a homosexual…..
EISENBACH: …..but committing homosexual acts will get you to go to Hell?
KELLER: Noooo. Wait a minute. Wait, wait [AUDIENCE LAUGHTER].
EISENBACH: well, you know. Some people say, ‘Well, it’s not the homosexuality or being gay. It’s being/doing gay stuff that’s the problem’.
KELLER: No, no. First of all, heterosexuality does not get you to heaven. I happen to know this [AUDIENCE LAUGHTER/CLAPPING]. So, how in the world could homosexuality send you to Hell? And actually…uhhh...The Bible...Listen…..This is…this is true. Jesus talks about greed 10x more than he talks about adultery, for example. Now, one of the problems Christians have here is partly…let’s be nice to Christians. You know when you’re committing adultery. I mean you don’t say, ‘Ohhh, you’re not my wife’ [AUDIENCE LAUGHTER]. I mean you know when you are committing adultery. But, almost nobody knows when they’re greedy. Nobody admits…thinks they’re greedy. You know cause everybody is comparing yourself to other people and so, it’s a frog in the kettle kind of thing. Ahhh….however, the fact of the matter is…the Bible is much harder on greed/materialism. It’s a horrible sin, terrible sin. Will greed send you to Hell? No! What sends you to Hell is self-righteousness – thinking that you can be your own savior and lord. What sends you to heaven is getting a connection with Christ because you realize you’re a sinner and you need intervention from outside. That’s why it is very misleading actually to say, even to say, ‘Homosexuality is a sin’ because most people…Yes, of course homosexuality is a sin because greed is a sin, because all kinds of things are sins. But what most Christians mean when they say that and certainly what non-Christians think they hear when they hear that is ‘If you’re gay, you are going to Hell for being gay’. It’s just not true. Absolutely not true.
EISENBACH: So then, what’s….then how is homosexuality a ‘sin’. I’m not….
KELLER: ….Well, homo…[sigh]..Greed is a sin. In other words, it doesn’t help human flourishing. Basically, Christianity has an account of what we think human beings were built to do and what will therefore, help human flourishing. So, we would say if you spend all of your money on yourself, that’s bad….not only for your own soul, but for everybody elses. We would say homosexuality is not the original design for sexuality. Therefore, it’s not good for human flourishing. We want people to do things that are good for human flourishing. But that’s not what sends you to heaven or Hell. Now, there…maybe we ought to talk about that [NERVOUS LAUGHTER]. What sends you to heaven or Hell really has to do with your faith in the Gospel which is that you can’t….uhhh…be your own savior through your performance and your good works. Now here, I’m coming at this like a protestant now. You know...ummm…everybody’s gotta be a particular kind of Christian and there’s differences of opinion within Christianity about this. But uhhhh…no. being gay doesn’t send you to hell and sin doesn’t send you to Hell like that. The sin underneath the sin is, ‘I am my own savior and my lord’. And that’s the reason why pharisaism, moralism, Bible-believing people who are proud and think God is going to take people to heaven because they’re good…that’s sending them to Hell. I mean, I know that this is a lot to take in at once.
EISENBACH: It’s a lot.
KELLER: I’m…well…yeah…I mean….[EISENBACH: I want to go back to……]but inside our church…[EISENBACH: right.] There’s just not going to be this disdain of homosexuals [EISENBACH: right.] There just can’t be…not when I’m teaching the gospel like that.
EISENBACH: right.
* * *
Then this from Spurgeon:
I know of no surer way of a people's perishing than by being led by one who does not speak out straight, and honestly denounce evil. If the minister halts between two opinions, do you wonder that the congregation is undecided? If the preacher trims and twists to please all parties, can you expect his people to be honest? If I wink at your inconsistencies will you not soon be hardened in them?
Like priest, like people. A cowardly preacher suits hardened sinners. Those who are afraid to rebuke sin, or to probe the conscience, will have much to answer for. May God save you from being led into the ditch by a blind guide.
And yet is not a mingle-mangle of Christ and Belial the common religion of the day? Is not worldly piety, or pious worldliness, the current religion of England? They live among godly people, and God chastens them, and they therefore fear him, but not enough to give their hearts to him. They seek out a trimming teacher who is not too precise and plain-spoken, and they settle down comfortably to a mongrel faith, half truth, half error, and a mongrel worship half dead form, and half orthodoxy.
God have mercy upon men, and bring them out from the world; for he will not have a compound of world and grace. "Come ye out from among them," saith he, "be ye separate: touch not the unclean thing." "If God be God, serve him: if Baal be God, serve him." There can be no alliance between the two. Jehovah and Baal can never be friends. "Ye cannot serve God and Mammon." "No man can serve two masters." All attempts at compromise or comprehensiveness in matters of truth and purity are founded on falsehood, and falsehood is all that can come of them. May God save us from such hateful doublemindedness.
Reason for God? Belief in an Age of Skepticism from The Veritas Forum on Vimeo. (The above transcript comes from about 51:43 and following on the video.)
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Meanwhile, the PCA goes after ... Peter Leithart.
Really? How hard is that question to answer?
Homosexual desires are a temptation (disordered, but not in themselves sinful), homosexual behavior (including lust) is a sin just like any sexual contact outside of marriage (one man and one woman for life). Persistent, unrepentant, proudly proclaimed sin (of any kind) does indeed send you to Hell.
Done and done, right. And I say this as a man who does struggle with homosexual desires. Exactly what good is Keller doing anyone in that crowd? He's not doing the actively gay people any good. He's not doing the men and women who struggle like I do any good. He's not doing, well, much at all.
That was depressing. Please tell me that was a joke.
This all sounds like the lame argument against abortion that asks us to consider the loss of human potential. "Just think! You could be killing the person who would find the cure for cancer!" Yeah, and you could be killing the next serial killer too. Lame argument. Just stand up and tell them that GOD has said, "Thou shalt not!" It carries much more weight.
Well said, College Jay. Praying for you....
One of these days, I'm hoping to see people go into the depth and breadth of Biblical teaching about sexuality when dealing with either fornication or homosexuality--noting that if indeed the Church is the Bride of Christ, either fornication or sodomy is not just an ordinary sin, but to symbolically unite our Lord with a prostitute or (in the case of homosexuality) an idol/demon.
A certain answer would be a good first step. Even better, though, would be if preachers could note what the issue REALLY is with fornication and homosexuality.
It appears to me that a lot of these folks--better Christians than I, more successful ministers than I was when I was a minister, my superiors in almost every way--are simply muddled thinkers when it comes to moral issues. Surely the questions and answers are simple: There are HARD questions, but these are not among them.
Is homosexual behavior wrong? Of course. Does God condemn it? Yes. Read your Bible. Are those who do these things going to Hell? It depends. If they are repentant and trust Christ, no. If they are unrepentant (something finally I cannot know about another person, but God does), yes--along with the greedy who are also unrepentant (God help us all!). I don't think Mr. Keller is afraid to say this; I think he has somehow or other forgotten it.
When the Apostle Paul preached his Mars Hill message in Athens it is interesting to note that only a few, very few, became disciples of Christ. Even kinky Corinth yielded a better result. That doesn't bode well for the Iowa City, Madison, Bloomington and Berkeley type of communities, does it? Here in Dame County, Wisconsin, we lack for churches which would proclaim the gospel clearly and boldly preach concerning sin, righteousness and judgment.
>It dosn't help human flourishing...
Is this answer qualitatively different from Joel Olsteen's response that he "likes to shoot for God's best way" when answering the same question?
Answer:yes.Olsteen at least had a theistic frame of reference in response to the question. Keller's answer is completely anthropocentric.
>I don't think Mr. Keller is afraid to say this; I think he has somehow or other forgotten it.
Dan, you are far too charitable in your assessment of Keller. A Pastor does not forget the Bible's teaching on homosexuality. He refuses to proclaim it because he doesn't believe it; or he does not wish to endure the consequences of doing so. In either case, Keller has simply acquiesced to the interior spirit of our present age - just as he has done with regard to the role of women in the Church. Given the latter, the former should not surprise us.
Bike wrote:
//One of these days, I'm hoping to see people go into the depth and breadth of Biblical teaching about sexuality when dealing with either fornication or homosexuality--noting that if indeed the Church is the Bride of Christ, either fornication or sodomy is not just an ordinary sin, but to symbolically unite our Lord with a prostitute or (in the case of homosexuality) an idol/demon//
This argument is at the core of the issue. Eg. Derek Webb seems to be saying that homosexual conduct is wrong, but no more wrong than, say, greed. The link that goes through the responses we are seeing here, is that straight fornication is more than 'ordinary sin', and homosexual conduct is more corrosive again. These vices, thus, are in a league of their own, and we are doing the cause of truth no favours by ignoring this gradation. OK Bike - trust I have understood you correctly, correction welcome.
I believe God tested Keller and found him wanting.
I have enjoyed Keller's book (the main topic in the video)very much. I have also been impressed with the various Youtube videos of him answering questions about the book. He doesn't say things as directly or bluntly as I would, but that's probably one of the reasons Columbia (or the like) doesn't ask a guy like me to speak. Said another way- his style isn't really my style, but maybe that's why he gains entrance in to places where he can strike up dialogue that could lead to further dialogue, etc. He did well to keep focusing on the person of Christ. Praise God for that.
His answer was too weak on homosexuality, but he did say it was a sin (despite qualifying it so much that greed was no worse, etc). I realize his context (NYC) makes him cautious so as not to be defined by selected soundbites, but I do wish he'd be more explicit about the sin of homosexuality.
Tony:
Keller said "Being gay doesn't send someone to hell. Self-righteousness is what sends someone to hell". In other words when he said yes homosexuality is a sin, he qualified it by saying that really, homosexuality is just another form of self righteousness.
Pastor Keller is well aware that the only way that the Holy Spirit convicts men of sin, righteousness, and judgement is through God's Law.
Pastor Keller avoids the Law of God because he knows that if he gives them the Law, the hearers at Mars Hill will leave sneering.
Ross, you've got it about right. Though I reckon when I think through some of those other sins, I would find occasion to note that there is blasphemy involved in them, too.
Sin sends people to Hell. Self-righteousness is a sin that sends people to hell. Homosexuality is a sin that sends people to hell. Sexual sins, for several reasons, are listed among the most serious of sin. I happen to think one of the reasons sexual sins are among the most defiling is because they are among the most difficult to escape and therefore dangerous.
It is weird how sometimes our Reformed theology really ends up returning to a quasi-dispensational view. Some dispensationalists will say the only sin that condemns is unbelief, which leads people to charge God with not being fair, because not all have heard the message.
Yet, Paul lists all sorts of sins that send people to Hell, and says that all human beings are guilty for sinning against the knowledge of right and wrong that they have --for having a conscience, however skewed, and acting inconsistently even with that conscience.
"His style isn't really my style, but maybe that's why he gains entrance in to places where he can strike up dialogue that could lead to further dialogue, etc."
Tony, this is the sort of thing that makes me pull out little bits of my beard. Jesus doesn't command his disciples to "Go into all the world, striking up dialog that can lead to further dialog etc."
Please understand that I'm not trying to pick on you personally. "Dialog" simply isn't the point.
NYC is dying for men who will boldly proclaim the Gospel without endless qualifications and caveats.
Oh, and I forgot to add: One of the sins Paul singles out in that argument as both the height of rebellion, and also God's withdrawal of his restraining hand, is men lying with men, and women lying with women...
> KELLER: You don’t go to Hell for being a homosexual…..
> EISENBACH: …..but committing homosexual acts will get you to go to Hell?
> KELLER: Noooo. Wait a minute. Wait, wait
Did Keller forget that Jesus taught we didn't have to actually outwardly do something to be hopelessly guilty?
> [homosexuality]’s not good for human flourishing.
Correct - Sodom had some trouble in the flourishing department. Or maybe their problem was greed? No, more likely it was being self-righteous -- yeah, that's it...
> What sends you to Hell is self-righteousness
What happened to being godless? America's big problem these days isn't exactly self-righteousness [fake holiness]. Licentiousness is more like it.
> We want people to do things that are good for human flourishing.
[Isn't "human flourishing" bad for the planet?] "Flourishing" -- sounds rather amoral and pragmatic: if flourishing is present, it must be right. Can't expect people to be holy because God is holy, or anything too religious-sounding.
JESUS: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
How fitting Keller's church office is on Broadway. In the last days, only a remnant will be saved. He's not warning people about the narrow gate.
> KELLER: ‘If you’re gay, you are going to Hell for being gay’. It’s just not true. Absolutely not true.
...
> KELLER: And that’s the reason why pharisaism, moralism, Bible-believing people who are proud and think God is going to take people to heaven because they’re good…that’s sending them to Hell.
It interesting that moralists --including proud, Bible-believing ones-- are the only ones Keller is willing to come right out and say are going to Hell for being such, whereas homosexuals most certainly are not.
> KELLER: Gay people have a different view of sexuality than generally what you see in the NT.
"Generally" different view?
> KELLER: The Bible says homosexuality is not God’s original design for sexuality.
"Original" design? Has there been an upgrade I missed?
> KELLER: That’s why it is very misleading actually to say, even to say, ‘Homosexuality is a sin’
Very "misleading"? What Keller is purposefully doing to God's truth is not loving.
I think what Keller is trying to do is saying that homosexual temptations aren't sinful, but homosexual acts (mental and physical) are. For example, any psychologist -- even a conservative one -- would label me a "homosexual" because I am only attracted to men. However, most of the time I'd prefer to say that I'm a Christian man who struggles with homosexual temptations. Sure, it's just a change in labels, but it shows a significant difference in world-view.
There are definitely Christians who are Bible-believing and redeemed, and who struggle against homosexual passions, yet who still refer to themselves as "gay" or "homosexual," simply because it's awkward and difficult to label this struggle. Are those the wisest labels? No. They could easily give people the wrong impression about your values and your beliefs. However, they aren't going to send you to Hell if you genuinely believe and aren't engaging in unrepentant, proudly proclaimed sin (unless there's a verse I missed somewhere).
I think that Keller is trying to say that homosexual sex sends one to Hell, but experiencing homosexual desires does not (since they are temptations). However, he's such a muddled mess, I can't even really tell.
I Corinthians 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
In seeking to remove the misconception that salvation is attained by keeping the law Keller seemed to trivialize the nature of sin as shameless rebellion against a holy God. Instead he gradually ended up appealing to a pragmatic basis for turning from sin.
So let's try this again.
Q. Is homosexuality a sin?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. God says so.
Q. Are homosexuals going to hell?
A. Yes, if they do not repent and believe the gospel.
I think that covers it
I'm not sure I understand all the disdain for Keller's comments. Could they have been better? Yes, probably. But I think he accomplished several things very artfully:
1. Clearly stated that homosexuality is a sin, multiple times.
2. Distanced himself from the moralists who believe homosexuality is somehow more damning than any other sin.
3. Laid out an excellent Romans 1 argument. Note that Paul brackets his comments on homosexuality in Romans 1 with the root cause of sin, namely humans worshiping themselves and failing to acknowledge God. Keller makes the exact same point: homosexuality is only the symptom of a greater disease.
4. Clearly presented the Gospel, namely that Christ alone is our Savior.
5. Condemned those who ignore that homosexuality is a sin so they can "love their neighbor."
Not perfect, but he did a lot in a few short minutes in front of a difficult crowd.
I just listened to this tape and still don't believe he actually said this, "And I see other Christian churches taking very seriously what the Bible says about homosexuality but in a very self-righteous way. So, they actually do single out gay people. I mean, there are a number of conservative churches that will love their Hindu neighbors and will love their Muslim neighbors, and not their gay neighbors."
I'd like to see a few church names and sample sermons because, frankly, I DON'T believe him.
Kamilla
Keller is too cute for his or his hearers' (there) own good.
Homosexuality is a God-given curse, per Romans 1. It differs from greed or Hinduism (to use two examples of Rev K's) in that in sodomy and lesbianism we see God-abandonment. Not merely sinners abandoning God, but God giving folks over to a particular depravity and hardening.
Sadly, this is missed in the bit we are given from the exchange with Eisenbach.
Also missing there was a clear presentation of (dare I say his name?) J.E.S.U.S.
In such an academic/ intellectual/ theatrical setting (not, obviously, a PCA service or WOTM street preaching in Santa Monica), Keller chose to play coy, but where was the call to repentance and faith -- at least alluded to? St Paul pleaded with sinners to be reconciled to God.
Where was Jesus placarded as the sodomite's (or the greedy's or a Hindu's) only true hope for eternal life, joy & peace? Where was the true life in Christ alone touted, showing his infinite glory, love, mercy, beauty, etc.?
Maybe in the other 70 minutes I haven't yet watched.
Finally, Keller's dodges of Eisenbach's simple and clear questions are evil.
##EISENBACH: Are committing homosexual acts sin….against God?
KELLER: uhhhh….What do you mean by ‘sin’? The answer is ‘yes’.
EISENBACH: Yes.
KELLER: Now see. Here’s the problem with that. You don’t go to Hell for being a homosexual…..
EISENBACH: …..but committing homosexual acts will get you to go to Hell?
KELLER: Noooo. Wait a minute. Wait, wait.
EISENBACH: well, you know. Some people say, ‘Well, it’s not the homosexuality or being gay. It’s being/doing gay stuff that’s the problem’.
KELLER: No, no. First of all, heterosexuality does not get you to heaven. I happen to know this. So, how in the world could homosexuality send you to Hell?##
Lie #2~ ##...the Bible is much harder on greed/materialism. It’s a horrible sin, terrible sin. Will greed send you to Hell? No! What sends you to Hell is self-righteousness – thinking that you can be your own savior and lord. What sends you to heaven is getting a connection with Christ because you realize you’re a sinner and you need intervention from outside. That’s why it is very misleading actually to say, even to say, ‘Homosexuality is a sin’ because most people…Yes, of course homosexuality is a sin because greed is a sin, because all kinds of things are sins. But what most Christians mean when they say that and certainly what non-Christians think they hear when they hear that is ‘If you’re gay, you are going to Hell for being gay’. It’s just not true. Absolutely not true.##
Sins are sins b/c God says that they are transgressions of his law, 1 John 3:4. They are not sins b/c they don't help us "flourish."
Nor are all sins alike. E.g. Stealing is worse than coveting, murder than hatred, etc. Of course our self-righteousness is a root evil, but God's word carefully and lovingly points out specific sins in order to convict us.
Self-righteousness IS specifically condemned by Paul in Romans 9:31 & 10:3, but it is specific to those trying to earn salvation thru Judaism.
The majority of OT & NT texts that deal with sin deal with sins, not a vague "self-righteousness," or "thinking that you can be your own savior and lord." These are sins, no doubt. But why avoid the biblical language and examples?
Keller's cupidity turns into duplicity.
Unbefitting a minister of the gospel.
Thank you for the Spurgeon and Ryle quotes, men!
Thank God there are men in the world like Tim Keller who are brave and articulate enough to present the gospel message to a room full of intellectual non-believers. One can only wonder how many lives were touched by Dr. Keller's talk.
>One can only wonder how many lives were touched by Dr. Keller's talk.
Yes, but was it a healing touch or something else...
Yes, Jack, one wonders at Keller's talk...
Jake said that Rev. Keller
1. Clearly stated that homosexuality is a sin, multiple times.
#Oh? Missed these for the lies that it ISN'T a sin. At best, he sounded an uncertain trumpet of confusion.
2. Distanced himself from the moralists who believe homosexuality is somehow more damning than any other sin.
#Oh, is THAT what we are, 'moralists'? Glad for the clarifying moniker. I guess Paul was moralistic, too?
3. Laid out an excellent Romans 1 argument. Note that Paul brackets his comments on homosexuality in Romans 1 with the root cause of sin, namely humans worshiping themselves and failing to acknowledge God. Keller makes the exact same point: homosexuality is only the symptom of a greater disease.
#Dang, missed that too! Maybe my hearing's going. And I thot Paul was saying that homosex was a giving over of God to judgment. Silly me.
4. Clearly presented the Gospel, namely that Christ alone is our Savior.
#I am SO out of it! I thought the gospel was the efficacious cross. Missed that bit apparently.
5. Condemned those who ignore that homosexuality is a sin so they can "love their neighbor."
#And spent more air condemning those who love only their non-gay neighbors and being self-righteous.
#Note: Hilarious non-confession by the liberal Keller that he has 'to take some responsibility for being a member of the Christian Church for the oppression of homosexuals.' 'Tim the Oppressor'? ROTFL.
Not perfect, but he did a lot in a few short minutes in front of a difficult crowd.
#We finally agree: He DID do a lot in a mere 86 minutes. Or at least he SAID a lot. Some BIG words too, just like a grown-up.
Hugh -
1. When did Dr. Keller ever lie and say homosexuality isn't a sin? He directly affirmed it is a sin when asked a yes or no question. So where did he lie? Where did he say that homosexuality isn't a sin?
2. Moralism is sinful. A moralist says "I'm more worthy of God because I'm not gay." Do you really believe that? Do you really believe you are any less deserving of hell than homosexuals? Do you or I need any Christ any less because we are attracted to women?
3. Read Romans 1, Hugh. Paul says homosexuality occurs because men and women worshiped themselves rather than worshiping God. Self-worship and failure to worship God are the deeper sins. Homosexuality is just the outward result of self-idolatry. That's Keller's point exactly.
4. You've completely lost me. The Gospel is "good news" that Christ alone has accomplished salvation for us, and we access the free gift of salvation by faith and repentance. Isn't the efficacy of the cross part of His work in accomplishing salvation?
5. Who did Jesus spend more time condemning, the Pharisees or the sinners? Which did He address using harsher language? Both the self-righteous and the amoral need a Savior.
Did you listen to the entire 86 minute discussion? I did, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better defense of God, the Bible, and Christianity today. The section on homosexuality comprised about 4 minutes of the discussion, and I thought he did a good job with it...
Jake,
Congratulations for bringing some sanity to this conversation. As you said, it was a brilliant 86 minute presentation of the gospel message.
To all those who just want to use this blog to criticize and to take part each word of Dr. Keller, I encourage you to find something better to do with your time.
JW
~~~"And I see other Christian churches taking very seriously what the Bible says about homosexuality but in a very self-righteous way. So, they actually do single out gay people. I mean, there are a number of conservative churches that will love their Hindu neighbors and will love their Muslim neighbors, and not their gay neighbors."
I'd like to see a few church names and sample sermons because, frankly, I DON'T believe him.
Kamilla~~~
Do those folks from whatever church it was who "singled out" a fallen soldier at his funeral count? I know he's beyond help, but if his family isn't saved, are those sorts of actions winsome for the Lord, so the family may hear the gospel? In my book the protesters said the right thing at a very wrong time, and in the wrong place, and in the wrong way. This is a glaring example of what Keller was talking about.
>Do those folks from whatever church it was who "singled out" a fallen soldier at his funeral count? I know he's beyond help, but if his family isn't saved, are those sorts of actions winsome for the Lord, so the family may hear the gospel? In my book the protesters said the right thing at a very wrong time, and in the wrong place, and in the wrong way. This is a glaring example of what Keller was talking about.
Are you referring to Fred Phelps?
The Westboro pastor and his church, yes. Had to look it up, sorry. I admit this is extreme, but it's out there, and there was a recent episode that hit the fan and is going to the Supreme Court, a free speech issue. It's too bad that this kind of stuff gets overplayed in the media and those who are tough on the sin while *truly* showing compassion to the sinner tend to get lumped in with that sort of thing, wholesale. It's the way they demonize everybody who disagrees with them. I haven't followed Keller on this issue, but I read Kamilla's comment with that news fresh in my mind, which is why I replied.
As Jake and Jake genuflect before the Keller shrine, I must pause for a weekend away.
Hope to catch up with y'all next week.
All blessings,
Hugh
Jake, ya said,
1. When did Dr. Keller ever lie and say homosexuality isn't a sin? He directly affirmed it is a sin when asked a yes or no question. So where did he lie? Where did he say that homosexuality isn't a sin?
>>>He said it is and it isn't. See the bit I cut and pasted:
EISENBACH: Are committing homosexual acts sin….against God?
KELLER: uhhhh….What do you mean by ‘sin’? The answer is ‘yes’.
>>>One for truth, Jake! You're up on me!
EISENBACH: Yes.
KELLER: Now see. Here’s the problem with that. You don’t go to Hell for being a homosexual…
>>>Oops, 1 to 1.
EISENBACH: …but committing homosexual acts will get you to go to Hell?
KELLER: Noooo. Wait a minute. Wait, wait.
>>>Oops again; 1 to 2.
EISENBACH: well, you know. Some people say, ‘Well, it’s not the homosexuality or being gay. It’s being/doing gay stuff that’s the problem’.
KELLER: No, no. First of all, heterosexuality does not get you to heaven. I happen to know this. So, how in the world could homosexuality send you to Hell?
>>>Strike three for Dr. K. 1 to 3. Truth strikes out when Dr. K pitches his gospel.
Lie #2~ …the Bible is much harder on greed/ materialism.
>>>Text[s] please?
It’s a horrible sin, terrible sin. Will greed send you to Hell? No!
>>>Oops; now greed (covetousness) is not damnable?
What sends you to Hell is self-righteousness – thinking that you can be your own savior and lord. What sends you to heaven is getting a connection with Christ because you realize you’re a sinner and you need intervention from outside.
>>>Some gospel presentation, that! Oh well, it is Kellerland, after all. Things just get curiouser and curiouser there.
That’s why it is very misleading actually to say, even to say, ‘Homosexuality is a sin’ because most people… Yes, of course homosexuality is a sin because greed is a sin, because all kinds of things are sins.
>>>Weak, but OK: Truths 2, Lies 3.
But what most Christians mean when they say that and certainly what non-Christians think they hear when they hear that is ‘If you’re gay, you are going to Hell for being gay’. It’s just not true. Absolutely not true.
>>>In the words of Luther, b.s. It is true, it is absolutely true. Entitle it: "Keller Witness Fail."
2. Moralism is sinful. A moralist says "I'm more worthy of God because I'm not gay." Do you really believe that? Do you really believe you are any less deserving of hell than homosexuals? Do you or I need any Christ any less because we are attracted to women?
>>>Self-righteousness, moralism, yes, they be sins. Homosex is described in Romans 1 as really, really bad. Adultery is worse than fantasy, homosex worse than fortification. Check out OT sanctions: some straight fornication was not punishable by stoning. All sodomy was. There are degrees of torment in hell. Sodomites get a hotter corner than straight fornicators.
3. [a]Read Romans 1, Hugh.
[b]Paul says homosexuality occurs because men and women worshiped themselves rather than worshiping God.
[c]Self-worship and failure to worship God are the deeper sins. Homosexuality is just the outward result of self-idolatry. That's Keller's point exactly.
>>>[a]Have done so.
>>>[b]Agreed, GOD GIVES THEM OVER to their reprobation.
>>>[c]No, sodomy and lesbianism are deeper depravities God gives some over to for their "self-worship & failure…" etc. These LEAD To God giving the guilty over to sexual debauchery.
4. You've completely lost me. The Gospel is "good news" that Christ alone has accomplished salvation for us, and we access the free gift of salvation by faith and repentance. Isn't the efficacy of the cross part of His work in accomplishing salvation?
>>>Certainly is! Where was that cross extolled by TK? Or Christ's infinite love and mercy that washes sodomites clean in Keller's prattle?
5. Who did Jesus spend more time condemning, the Pharisees or the sinners? Which did He address using harsher language? Both the self-righteous and the amoral need a Savior.
>>> Beware of pitting your red-letter gospels against Moses or Paul or John. They're all God's words. Sodomites are given theirs in Leviticus, Rom. 1:24-28, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, I Tim. 1:10, & Rev. 22:15 ("dogs"). Need Jesus repeat himself?
Did you listen to the entire 86 minute discussion? I did, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better defense of God, the Bible, and Christianity today. The section on homosexuality comprised about 4 minutes of the discussion, and I thought he did a good job with it…
>>>Maybe I'll listen someday. Thank you.
>>>Hugh
Jake,
Upon review, I stand corrected. Thank you.
I erred in writing to you the following (in reply to your saying that TK "clearly stated that homosexuality is a sin, multiple times"), I said: "Oh? Missed these for the lies that it ISN'T a sin."
I repent of and retract that statement. Thank you, Jake.
Keller did not say that homosexuality is not a sin. What he said that was troubling is that it is not damning, it won't send one to hell. This is dangerously untrue.
>>> K: You don’t go to Hell for being a homosexual…
>>> E: …but committing homosexual acts will get you to go to Hell?
K: Noooo. Wait a minute. Wait, wait.
>>> K:…heterosexuality does not get you to heaven. I happen to know this. So, how in the world could homosexuality send you to Hell?
>>> K: But what most Christians mean when they say that and certainly what non-Christians think they hear when they hear that is ‘If you’re gay, you are going to Hell for being gay’. It’s just not true. Absolutely not true.
Actually, it is true, absolutely true.
Hugh McCann
Speaking of being out of one's mind, is the Rev Dr Keller outa his New York state of mind with this silliness, as well as that which he gave at your PCA sem, Covenant, w/ Prez Chapell?!
You'd have thought that THERE at least, he'd have hit a home run. But alas, another whiff.
Yes, I find it interesting that Paul remarked on it more than once. His thinking was very much in line with the O. T. pairing of revelry, blindness, and pagan behaviors. Also, as Wright pointed out, Paul at Corinth knew of "queer" behaviors--the types and their contexts--it was all out in the open unless you were rich. And we learn from Revelation of examples of those who remain separate for eternity. Outside are...and so on. And yes, in terms of human flourishing, it is counterproductive obviously. Genetic thinking suggests there is a prediliction with birth and perhaps that's the case. But to reason from what is to what ought to be is foolish.
I'm not unaware of all kinds of scientific proof for homosexuality. Birth brings with it all kinds of issues. But to declare something good or bad one would have to look elsewhere.
And I think too that that is in keeping with a generally Reformed perspective of the Bible.
Keller always speaks this way. In a halting, pausing manner, no matter what he is talking about. But he is one of the most kind and fair Christian intellectuals anywhere. To present his speech patterns in such a way is unfair and unchristian.
Dear Rob,
What is unchristian is to fail to call sinners to repentance. The speech patterns Tim carefully places between every word he speaks are an integral part of that failure. He chooses each one and each one adds to the pool of mincing.
Love,
Dr. Keller is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), which claims to be a bible-based denomination within Christianity. Years ago, Dr. Keller sat for an interview with David Eisenbach of Columbia University. Here are some of the points Dr. Tim Keller put forth during this interview:
1. It is very misleading actually to say, even to say, “Homosexuality is a sin.”
2. You don’t go to Hell for being a homosexual.
3. Committing homosexual acts will not get you to go to Hell.
4. Greed will not send you to hell.
And then…
5. Self-righteousness and pride will send you to hell.
If you don’t believe it, watch the video or read a transcript of the video.
According to Dr. Keller, the sin of self-righteousness and pride, which is, to use Keller’s own example, thinking God is going to take people to heaven because they’re good, will send people to hell, but the sin of greed, which is lusting after more material possessions or money, and the sin of homosexuality, which is having sexual intercourse with someone of the same gender, will not send people to hell.
People wonder how Christian denominations slip into error and sin brought about by pressure from the worldly culture around them. This is a very good example of that. Going by the interview with Eisenbach, Dr. Keller appears to disagree with Paul’s statement in First Corinthians 6:9 that neither the greedy nor homosexuals will inherit the Kingdom of God. But I’m sure he would assert that he does agree with Paul in that passage of Scripture. So what was Dr. Keller trying to do in this interview when asked about homosexuality? He was clearly trying to not get booed off-stage. He was trying not to offend the audience. And he was successful in doing this by essentially saying that religious, bible-believing, people who engage in the prideful and self-righteous judgment of others will, based on that action, be sent to hell, but that people who engage in homosexual intercourse will, based on that action, not be sent to hell. Dr. Keller’s clear intent was to pacify a crowd which was unsympathetic to the biblical view of homosexuality. What better way to do that than to hold close the nice homosexual while summarily denouncing the mean religionist.
Dr. Keller basically held up three forbidden fruits and said that one of them will kill you, but the other two, while they’re not really good for you. won’t kill you. Remember the saying? “You will not surely die.” He was doing his best to say what their itching ears wanted to hear while staying true to the bible, but he failed. Ministers of the gospel need to be bold and hold fast to biblical doctrine. They should denounce all damnable sins for what they are, not just pick out the one particular sin that happens to be repugnant to the unbelievers in your audience at the time, while simultaneously downplaying the sins that they approve of as not such a big deal.
As for point number one above, Dr. Keller says during the interview that it is misleading to say that homosexuality is a sin. Immediately after he says that, he says “of course homosexuality is a sin…” It is hard to find a more pathetic example of a double-tongued waffling minister talking out of both sides of his mouth and trying to please everyone in the room.
To my knowledge, Dr. Keller has never been formally called to account by the PCA for the glaring inconsistencies and false assertions he put forth during this interview. I could be wrong, but he has never, to my knowledge, renounced the interview or repented of how he presented things during it. Maybe I’m wrong. If I am, I will remove this post. If someone could let me know, I would appreciate it
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