The shepherding and discipline of man by woman at Redeemer...
(Tim, w/thanks to past and present Redeemer Presbyterian Church members and leaders)
Recently, I was sent a PowerPoint slide that was distributed among Redeemer's pastors and Shepherding Team members explaining to them how Redeemer's five "Clusters" are to shepherd all those involved in the church's "Fellowship Groups." What it reveals about the pastoral authority woman exercises over man at Redeemer isn't surprising given Tim Keller's stated commitment that a woman may do anything an unordained man may do, there.
Here's an excerpt:
(Redeemer's) Shepherding Team is comprised of 5 Clusters. Each Cluster consists of a Fellowship Group Director, 2-4 Elders, and a Woman Advisor.
(When) a Fellowship Group Director is a woman, she will serve the roles of both Fellowship Group Director and Woman Advisor.
Fellowship Group Director is “firewall,” facilitator and liaison to the Shepherding Team for all cases that come to the Cluster.
Ruling Elders and Teaching Elders in a Cluster become the standing commission for cases that are brought to the Cluster by the Fellowship Group Director...
Scope of a Cluster’s role is strictly limited to the following types of cases, which come to the Director only through his/her Fellowship Group system and/or as Pastor on Call:
b) Acute discipline cases that cannot be handled solely by the Fellowship Group Director (see diagram below).
So these "5 Clusters" are each led by a "Fellowship Group Director" and they are composed of a pastor, a couple elders, and a woman.
What are the duties of those "Fellowship Group Directors?"
Well, whenever possible, they are supposed to "handle" "shepherding" and "discipline cases" so those cases don't have to be handled more formally by a "standing commission" of pastors and elders.
And among those 5 "Fellowship Group Directors" who lead the pastor and elders under them in their "Cluster" and "handle" "shepherding" and "discipline cases," one is a woman.
This means a woman is responsible for the less acute shepherding and discipline of hundreds of souls at Redeemer. They are under her authority and she's doing her job well if she can "solely" "handle" most of those cases so they don't have to go to the pastor and elders.
At New York's Redeemer Presbyterian Church, women shepherd and discipline men, lead the congregation in pastoral prayers, read the Scripture lessons, attend Session meetings (one woman), direct teaching and ruling elders in small group ministries, serve the Lord's Supper...
About the only thing they don't do is preach, vote in session meetings, and try formal discipline cases (when there are any).
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Comments
So, a woman [as Fellowship Group Director] can do non-acute sheperding and disciplining? [I suppose she determines what is non-acute?] She is a “firewall,” facilitator and liaison to the Shepherding Team for all cases that come to the Cluster? Yikes!
The Advisor of the Fellowship Group Director and Elders is required to be a woman? I wonder what the female Advisor's job description is.
> About the only thing they don't do is preach, vote in session meetings, and try formal discipline cases (when there are any).
Do they take out the trash, or is that a real man's job?
> a woman may do anything an unordained man may do.
In fact, she can do something an unordained man *can't* do -- be a Woman Advisor to the Fellowship Groups.
Are Man Advisors required in the Nursery?
"In fact, she can do something an unordained man *can't* do -- be a Woman Advisor to the Fellowship Groups."
Michael, O Michael. Puh-LEEEEEEZE come into the 21st Century.
Haven't you learned yet that gender is a social construct?? Any male can be a woman advisor to fellowship groups. Many men already serve with honor and dignity as women advisors in fellowship groups.
In fact, in pulpits across the land, males serve with distinction, even with celebrity, as women. It requires NOTHING with respect to their private parts, don't you see. To suppose it must is archaic, patriarchal in the most grotestque and deplorable sense, and downright oppressive to both males and females.
Sheeeesh.
Fr. Bill--
Sorry to be so dense. Thanks for your patience with me. How does this sound for a good work-around to the "women teaching and having authority over men" problem?...
If those previously though to be men in a church are really women, then a woman may legitimately lead them.
There you go, Michael. I think you've got it!
This covers not only fellowship groups, but entire congregations of males and females. After all, why, otherwise, would a male remain in a congregation led by a female? Each male must be thinking of himself as a woman, while the female pastor is free to think herself a man OR a woman.
Finally! True liberation for females!
Hello, my wife and i have been arguing over this. She feels led to disciple a few young men who are friends of my sons because they "trust" her. She said it would be wrong not to give them Jesus and help them walk closer to Jesus.
I said, well why can't you hand them over to a man because I don't think it is appropriate for a woman to disciple men. She bought up Aquila and Priscilla.. I said, "the discipled Apollos together"! She argued there's no proof! I am frustrated with this argument. I have no problem with a woman sharing the gospel with any man. But discipleship is something all together different...am I right?
Dear Rob,
It's hard to counsel from a distance with no personal knowledge of you or your wife. Still, I'm betting there's something going on here beyond the simple question. A reason you aren't stating that you may not even be conscious of, but still is leading you as you lead your wife not to disciple these young men. And it's precisely such an area where your leadership matters.
If you don't think it would be good for your wife to disciple these men, then don't allow her to do it. This is the meaning of leadership and submission. Tell her she may be right, but you have a responsibility to protect her and your home, not to mention the young men, and you have concluded that it is wrong and she isn't to do it.
Then reassure her loving concern for these young men by telling her you're going to disciple them yourself. How could anyone object?
Love,
Tim Bayly: "Then reassure her loving concern for these young men by telling her you're going to disciple them yourself. How could anyone object?"
I certainly wouldn't. But I could imagine staunch egalitarians objecting.
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