Carl McIntire ain't got nothing on us...

(Tim) If you want a good belly laugh, go here and read David Wegener's comment about fundamentalists' degrees of separation. And if you're inclined to be offended by the humor, I assure you some of our best friends are fundamentalists.

Comments

hey, Tim, I hope I'm included in the 'fundamentalist friends' category.

There is enough truth to the humour to make it good satire, but I think it misunderstands the fundamentalist ethic.

In fact, I think a lot of fundamentalists make the same mistake, hence discussions like this occur within the movement. Sometimes not in jest, unfortunately.

I think the explanation would be too long for a blog post, but in short I would say that fundamentalism is only derivatively about separation (in other words, separation is a consequence, not the raison d'etre). The central idea of fundamentalism is militancy for the fundamentals. The consequences of the militancy can produce separation (but not always). And the separation happens both ways. Fundies separate from and are separated from.

Anyway, carry on...

And count me still a friend!

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Dear Don (and I mean dear),

Before I edited it out, the name "Don" was in this post cited as a friend,

Real affection and unity in Christ, while not ashamed of being seen as a fundamentalist myself,

Tim

I've followed (Southern, baptistic) Fundamentalism for many years now, and have come to the view that its militancy and separation owe more than a little to the social environment where it developed. I open this up for comment and likely disagreement, but that's fine.

Here's how. The Southern Fundamentalists were on the wrong side of two great social fissures in American life. The first was the division between the South and the rest of America, a legacy of the Civil War. The second social fissure was that within the South itself, which (I suspect) was reflected in churchgoing patterns: the doctors, lawyers and large farmowners were Episcopal; the accountants and engineers were Presbyterian; and the office workers and farmworkers were Baptists.

So, when strong doctrinal differences were added to an existing and keen sense of 'us and them' in the social hierarchy, what happened next should not be surprising. A lot of the anti-intellectualism of the Fundamentalist movement, especially in its early years, was because 'the enemy' was assumed to be intellectuals who were northern Yankees as well!

The SBC was less affected by these tendencies than the Fundamentalists, but its origins, remember, derived from a split with northern Baptists in 1845 over the issue of slavery, and I have been told by people who come from this background that for many years 'it served as the civil religion for the South'.

Perhaps I draw with too broad a brush, but the militancy that Don describes above, came in the South's case from a whole series of factors.

Hi Ross,

Well, I think you are confusing terms. Historically, the term "Fundamentalist" has a particular meaning. It was actually mostly a Northern phenomenon, the consequence of two major fights in the 1920s, among the Northern Baptists and the Presbyterians. The fallout from the Northern Baptists were the GARB, the Conservative Baptists, and the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship. There have been various permutations and defections since then, but historically, it was largely a Northern phenomenon.

With the Presbyterians, think Machen, the OPC and the Bible Prebys.

The SBC at the time was pretty thoroughly conservative and not affected by the earlier battles. It had its own problems later.

So if we are going to talk about the term, it is probably better to talk about it in its actual historical context. Too many people think it simply means someone who is theologically conservative. That is part of it, but that isn't the history at all.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Would that explain why most of the writers of "The Fundamentals" were northerners and Europeans, then, Ross? :^) (and all those great southern Presbyterians like Machen of Princeton?)

Sorry, I couldn't resist, but reality is that while fundamentalism is reputed to be southern and baptistic, other regions have always had strong fundamental traditions. I personally attend a church that's been fundamental since before anyone knew what a fundamentalist was, and our former pastor (Clearwaters) almost single-handedly rescued Minnesota Baptist churches from the clutches of theological liberalism.

Plus, the southern Baptists were theologically moderate until recently--and given that the correlation of Biblical faith with bigotry rests largely on that body, it largely falls with that body's tendency towards theological liberalism of the past.

Bike Bubba,

OK - who's your pastor and which Minnesota Baptists? The Germans (my heritage)? The Swedes (my aunt and uncle)?

And Don, good to see you here -- haven't heard much from you at the other place lately.

Kamilla

I am quite aware of the northern and southern 'branches' of Fundamentalism, with the Northern branch of it having a strong Presbyterian outworking.

I thought I had made it clear enough in the post that I was concentrating my discussion on the southern variety, which I described as 'southern and Baptistic'. Also, most of my exposure to Fundamentalism has been to the southern variety, in terms of reading and so forth. My original point was that there were factors in the southern environment which fueled their version of fundamentalists - I'm thinking of BJU in particular.

Hi Ross,

In re-reading your post, I think I misunderstood you to be equating SBC and Fundamentalism... sort of destroys the entire thesis of my response!

Ok, now that I think I understand you better...

Could I point out that BJU is (and has always been) non-denominational? Dr Bob Sr was a Methodist. The faculty (including the school of Religion) has had teachers from a wide variety of denominations. So yes, I would think you are broadbrushing if you are thinking of BJU as baptistic. And saying the northern branch as having a strong Presbyterian background is probably not correct either.

I suppose those are quibbles.

Your main point seems to be that Southern fundamentalism is tainted by being on the wrong side of the Southern 'fissures', i.e., race and class. If your thesis were correct, why is there a "Northern Branch" at all? Why would Northern and Southern fundamentalists speak with essentially the same voice in the theological and denominational controversies? Why would Southern fundies so embrace their Northern compatriots if they were so tainted by the North/South fissure and being on the "wrong side" of it?

Quite frankly, it sounds like an attempt to dismiss the philosophy of fundamentalism by linking it to dubious (at best) positions on race. While it is true that fundamentalists (and a host of other people) had wrong views on race, such errors really have nothing to do with the fundamentalist ethic. Perhaps the tenacity with which some of them clung to these errors was the fruit of their ethic, not the other way around.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

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