Another one bites the dust...

(Tim) Jake Mentzel bought Mark Driscoll's new booklet and reports Tim Keller has waved his magic wand and Mark's now walking around in a trance repeating Tim's mantra: "A woman can do anything an unordained man can do." I'm disappointed.

But really, it shouldn't be too much of a surprise. When they hang out with each other, either Mark's going to rub off on Tim or Tim's going to rub off on Mark. And ninety-nine out of a hundred times, I'd have my money on Tim.

Manhattan's more sophisticated than Seattle and conversions usually usher you to a higher social class, not a lower one.

Mark (ahem) my words: Before it ends, Mark will be baptizing babies, but you'll never hear "friggin" on one of Tim's MP3 products.

Comments

Ouch!

If I am not mistaken, Mars Hill has had deaconesses since long before the association with Rev. Keller.

This goes back to the early emmergent/emmerging days.

This is truly heart-breaking but not surprising. I heard another pastor from A29 give that unbiblical quip not long of go and wondered if he was a Keller fan. I tracked down his blog to find that he indeed was.

Tim,

Mark's stand on biblical sexuality in a culture of depravity and indifference to biblical norms has been, in my mind, courageous even though I disagree with him on some issues. Are we sure we want to toss the black hat on him? I know zero about this particular issue at Mars Hill, but I suspect it has little to nothing to do with Keller, like Kevin indicated above. And, if that's true, accusing this brother of being a Keller sychophant wouldn't appear to be honoring your brother's good name. Even (especially) in disagreement. I know that some of Mark's excesses have been "reigned in" by his more recent shoulder-rubbing with Piper, Mahaney, Duncan, and others, which is a good thing. He should've had older men doing that for him years ago.

By the way, does Sinclair Ferguson fall under the same condemnation as pastor of First Pres, ARP, which I understand has deaconesses (and is part of a larger body which does allow for it, even if First doesn't)

Ferguson is (arguably) as influential as Keller.

Keep up the good work, Bayly brothers!

Dear Matt,

I've written a lot on the betrayal of Scripture's doctrine of sexuality this phrase represents. Further, its use is almost always by those with close connections to Tim Keller--he's been popularizing it for years, now.

Maybe instead of pointing out my concerns in a jocular way, I should have given more serious warnings. But then, we wouldn't be able to laugh, would we? I like to laugh.

Concerning the ARP's practice of deaconesses, it bears not the least resemblance to anything Tim or his Redeemer clones have ever done. Sure, they try to cloak their feminist practice in the robes of the Early Church and Calvin and Warfield and First Pres. Columbia, SC, but it's a charade that anyone who's read the history of the controversy will see through immediately.

So, for the record, I didn't bring up First Pres. Columbia, SC, because they have nothing at all to do with the warning I'm giving here concerning Tim Keller and his bad influence on Mark Driscoll.

Thanks for your cautions, dear brother.

Affectionately,

I probably shouldn't have done this, but I wanted to send this link to Pastor Driscoll the best way I knew how, so I put it up on his wall on Facebook. I didn't think about the fact the he might not want the whole world to see this, but I checked back there this morning, and my comment was deleted. Hopefully he knows about it now. Maybe since he has been hanging out with CJ Mahaney, he'll approach you with a humble heart. I hope so.

Brothers, we all need to forget about the big dogs. I've lived my whole life in the middle of this evangelical personality cult marketing machine, and the fact that the brightest star today may be somewhat reformed and somewhat biblical concerning sexuality is no victory for the Bride of Christ or the glory of God.

Don't buy any books published in the last ten or twenty years. Older books of dead men are better reads because they're not pandering to you to get your sale, and the distance provides time to see what's hay and stubble, and what's gold. Don't go to any conferences where the big dogs cultivate their personality cult and makes tons of money from ancillary book sales.

Read the dead guys. Study the dead guys. Love the dead guys. Then you'll have a fighting chance at understanding your own culture and being prophetic within it.

"Forget about the big dogs" sounds like a good post in its own right, gracious host. Whether or not you do, I think I just might....

Bayly Men,

Have you ever had a face to face conversation with Tim Keller concerning your issues with him?

Debbie

Debbie,

Out of curiosity, why? Would he tell you that all his public words were lies and that he privately believes the exact opposite?

Wait — Keller voted for Obama?

You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding.

>Keller voted for Obama?

I was joking. But to be safe, I pulled it off.

Read the dead guys. Study the dead guys. Love the dead guys.

"[T]he venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me, and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals."

--Samuel Davies

Meaning no offense, or wishing evil upon him, but I don't even consider Driscoll a pastor: a guy who has no use with anyone who gets in the way of his "vision" to grow 'his' church to 10,000 is a guy with his own heart and purpose on his agenda, not caring for the faint, sick, poor in spirit, etc.. One of our discerning dispensational brethren had the guts to mention this from Driscoll's books: http://www.svchapel.org/resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=378

Driscoll, I think, is one of those we're warned NOT to let into pastorate or be called as an elder: yet here he is. : (

Biblically, this is a right way to approach this.

Brothers,

When arguments are put forward, publicly, by national figures with lots of public relations moves and fanfare, it's an abuse of Scripture to say those who respond to the public promotion of error by public rebuke of that error are required first to try to deal with the proponents of the error privately. This is to confuse public and private offenses.

If Tim Keller had offended me personally, it would be right for me to approach him privately, and not take it to the blog for redress. But Tim Keller has never offended me privately since I've never met him. In fact, Tim Keller has never offended me, personally, either.

Rather, Tim Keller has bypassed our PCA "Book of Church Order" in his practice of woman deacons, and he defends it publicly. Or, to give another expample, Tim avoids speaking and preaching against abortion in his church and he calls other men to follow him in his error.

To address these matters as if they were private offenses would be to trivialize them.

But, to reassure those scandalized by our criticisms of famous reformed personalities, here's an e-mail I sent to Tim this past April:

* * *

April 9, 2008

Dear Pastor Keller,

Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Savior and Lord.

About two years ago, I asked my presbytery's stated clerk, Pastor David Dively, if there were any documents in our denomination articulating the position of the churches using men and women together as deacons. Some time later he sent me the position paper by Alan Foster of East Lanier PCA saying it was the only thing he could find being circulated among stated clerks. Since then I've also read your own paper articulating and defending the position held by Redeemer.

I write to notify you that I've put a link to your paper up on my blog so people can read it, along with two other papers I think do a good job of giving the rationale behind this movement--one by Alan Foster and the other by Sam Downing (now in the RCA).

As you'll see in my post, I'm critical of the position you have taken. If you want to hear my criticisms more specifically, I'd be pleased to speak to you in person or on the phone. Or you can read them by searching for your name on our blog.

Despite my opposition to the positions you've taken, I commend you for putting those positions down on paper so they may be dealt with forthrightly and openly.

In Christ,

Tim Bayly

http://www.baylyblog.com/

(812) (here I gave him my cell phone number)

* * *

Tim did not initiate contact with me, personally, when I offered to speak to him here. And I don't fault him for this. It's his perogative to decide how best to use his time and I feel no slight because of his decision.

In Christ,

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