Anonymity at Covenant College...

Certainly there is some reasonable explanation on why Professors who are employed to shape and form the minds of students are expressing that it is perfectly acceptable to consider a White hating Marxist, Black Liberation Practitioner, Pro infanticide voter, bugger loving Senator, terrorists friendly Democrat as a Christian.

Hi Bret,

What is a bugger lover?

Do you really think Obama is a white-hater? His mother was white you know.

Bugger lover. Learn something new every day.

I'm very familiar with BLT, neo-orthodoxy, process theology, and the like, but their are distinctions between BLT and black supremacy.

I would say that BLT doesn't hate whites so much as it hates the culture that whites built (Western Civilization).

Seriously though Bret, is Michelle Obama's views on America that much different from yours? Didn't you say that you don't believe that the USA is a legitimate governmental authority? I'm not trying to pick on you, but why the outrage of the Obama's lack of patriotism when you have the same sort of disdain for the post Civil-war United States.

but their are distinctions between BLT and black supremacy.

I would say that BLT doesn't hate whites so much as it hates the culture that whites built (Western Civilization).

Amazing ... absolutely amazing.

Culture is the outward manifestation of a people's inward beliefs. If you hate the culture that whites have built, then you hate the beliefs of white people which is a very short distance from hating white people.

And to be perfectly honest Black people in the West should thank God every night in their prayers for the existence of White people and their culture. Without it, they would have remained as pagan as their brethren they left behind in Africa.

Those white people and the culture they built was known for centuries as Christendom. Now, Christendom certainly had its problems, and it was never all that it might of been, but for all that, it was the greatest civilization ever built by man, and this is so because at the center of Christendom beat the heart of a people who did all that they did for the glory of God.

So, when I see hatred for White people, or hatred for the Culture they built, all I see is hatred for God. I've seen the cultures that they've built. I spent time in Africa doing Missions work.

Now don't get me wrong Brett. White people are sinners and powerfully stupid. Why, just look how they have taken Christendom and run it into the ground due to their avarice, and their attempt to pursue Utopian political visions.

Seriously though Bret, is Michelle Obama's views on America that much different from yours? Didn't you say that you don't believe that the USA is a legitimate governmental authority?

Good point Brett!

Here is the difference between Michelle Obama's rage and mine. Michelle is outraged because there hasn't been enough done (handouts given) for her people. I am outraged because by creating a entitlement culture that is destroying her people we are destroying the West.

It's true we're both outraged, but we're outraged for the exact opposite reasons.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but why the outrage of the Obama's lack of patriotism when you have the same sort of disdain for the post Civil-war United States.

It's simple -- Because the direction that Obama wants to take things in order to quench his outrage is the very direction that I'm outraged about.

And its really not about Patriotism. It's about what kind of country we'd like people to be Patriotic over.

Oh, and Rick... I purposefully use the vulgar word bugger to try and make up for the all the times that the euphemistic word "gay" is used to describe this dirty, filthy, God hating lifestyle.

am i missing something?

object to quoting Scripture? - certainly not.

object to vulgar language? - yes.

two wrongs make a right, bret?

any thoughts on Jesus' and Paul's remarks on name-calling and obscenity in speach?

or is that not relevant when vulgarity serves the higher cause of hate?

THE WEST IS DYING ... IT IS GOING INTO ECLIPSE BECAUSE WE CAN'T SEEM TO HATE THAT WHICH IS EVIL. WE'RE TO BUSY TRYING TO BE UNDERSTANDING AND SYMPATHETIC TO THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO DESTROY BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY.

If I am using Hate in the higher cause of anything I've got plenty of good company.

"Hate that which is evil, cling to that which is good."

"Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate thee? Am I not grieved with those who rise up against thee? I hate them with a perfect hatred. Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me, and know my thoughts; and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Further, if you read you're Bible you'll notice that Jesus and Paul were pretty good at name-calling when necessary.

It is you Rick who are on the slippery slope of hatred. Your sentimental notions against calling the ugliness of deep and vile sins by names that reflect the depth and vileness of those sins indicates a willingness to coddle sin. I suspect the reason that you find such language objectionable is that you do not yet see how objectionable the sin itself is. I further suspect that in the past few posts you've shown more alarm over my use of a word then any alarm you've shown in the past decade over the offense that buggery is before a Holy and just God.

Ah ... so now the truth is out.

Rick is offended because he is pro sodomy.

David,

Because I desire my eulogy to include the statements that

"Rev. McAtee, was a man of mighty restraint, and nobody was known more than he to practice the art of understatement."

About the words we use here in these comments, I just put up a post dealing with 'bugger,' 'gay,' 'homosexual,' and 'sodomite.'

And to be perfectly honest Black people in the West should thank God every night in their prayers for the existence of White people and their culture. Without it, they would have remained as pagan as their brethren they left behind in Africa..

Bret,

I have to revisit this. This sounds racist and condescending to me.

Their brethren? If they are Children of God, we are there brothers, not pagans in Africa. You speak as if Western Civilization is YOUR gift to the world. You should be thankful you were born in a Country in which the Gospel is preached. By the grace of God, we are saved, not by anything intrinsically good in ourselves or our culture.

Besides, aren’t you the one that chided me for supposedly claiming that might makes right? Well, you have outright swallowed it here.

Good grief. If this isn’t what you believe, you need to restate. If it is what you believe, you need to repent.

Even George Wallace repented.

I have to revisit this. This sounds racist and condescending to me.

Then you need to clean the politically correct wax out of your muliti-culturalism ears.

There is nothing either racist or condescending it what I said. Merely a articulation of objective facts.

Their brethren? If they are Children of God, we are there brothers, not pagans in Africa.

I never said I was talking about Christians did I? You need to keep up with the conversation Brett. The context was those who advance Black Liberation Theology, which I don't consider Christian in the slightest.

You speak as if Western Civilization is YOUR gift to the world.

Do you always make these kind of inferences where none exist Brett? I have deep feelings about Western civilization not because it is my gift to the World, but rather because it was God's gift to the World. Western civilization would never have been what it has been if not for God's gift of Christianity. Those who despise Western Civilization (like Black LIberation Theology -- remember the context Brett) despise one of God's greatest temporal gifts to mankind he has ever given.

You should be thankful you were born in a Country in which the Gospel is preached. By the grace of God, we are saved, not by anything intrinsically good in ourselves or our culture.

Brett, why you feel any necessity to articulate the obvious is quite beyond me. Still, I'm glad that the obvious is stated again, and let me utter a hearty AMEN.

Besides, aren’t you the one that chided me for supposedly claiming that might makes right? Well, you have outright swallowed it here.

Well, you've completely lost me with what looks to be a profoundly discombobulated accusation. It pains me to ask, for fear of the answer from left field that I am going to get, but please, do tell, how have I embraced "might makes right" in anything I've said?

Good grief. If this isn’t what you believe, you need to restate. If it is what you believe, you need to repent.

I'll repent when somebody can gainsay what I've said.

Even George Wallace repented.

To compare what I've said to George Wallace is just profound ignorance of the deepest sort on your part.

Then you need to clean the politically correct wax out of your muliti-culturalism ears.

Bret,

I apologize for inferring the racist comment as that is what it sounded like to me. I am not PC; in fact, I think you are the first to ever accuse me of that.

I think I going to go on to bigger and better things for now.

please forgive my apparent total ineptitude with html. I'm a computer poser obviously. :)

Or maybe it's just that racism really does exist, Bret, and that the Church is not immune from this sin.

Bret,

Why not then say, "Blacks can be thankful that God accomplished good even through the abomination of the institution of slavery when white landowners intended it for evil and indeed perpetrated a great evil with it."

The institution of slavery had NOTHING good come of it. That God redeemed some of His people even in the midst of it is a testament to His great mercy and ability to use whatever the circumstances might be to His glory, not a justification for slavery.

Now I assume that this is NOT what you were doing, however, it sure sounded like it might be. Just an exhortation to clarity in an issue that has a lot of raw feelings still. i.e. you don't tell dead person jokes in a funeral parlor.

Those black Africans who sold their black victims into slavery, and those Yankee Shipping Magnates who bought the slaves and then sold them for a tidy profit, and those Black plantation owners (yes, Virginia they existed) who bought the slaves to stock their breeding farms intended it for evil, but God intended it for good.

I notice everyone is guilty here except for the white southern plantation owners. In fairness, you didn’t list the slaves who managed to not elude their captors as guilty. Interesting…

. Anybody who thinks my comments sound racist have had their ears trained by our politically correct culture.

How do you know it isn’t because you haven’t poorly communicated your thoughts? Why must it be sin on our part?

I have followed your link to your blog, and quite frankly I am a bit disturbed by your take on race. Could you please explain exactly what you believe as far as race and especially racial identity? For example, do you have any issue with various races worshiping, socializing, and even marrying one another? Do you see racial identity as an important element to uphold in our culture?

I notice everyone is guilty here except for the white southern plantation owners. In fairness, you didn’t list the slaves who managed to not elude their captors as guilty. Interesting…

Brett, when you read something on this era besides the court historians we will talk. If you want to become enlightened I will be glad to offer you some literature if you request it.

Those white Southerners who abused their slaves are every bit as guilty as the others I mentioned. I can't write everything in every post I write Brett. Your problem is you impute your cleverness to other people. I don't operate with that kind of cleverness Brett.

How do you know it isn’t because you haven’t poorly communicated your thoughts? Why must it be sin on our part?

Because I know what words mean Brett. It is my calling, career and business. I also know how steeped in pc and multiculturalism the Church is.

I have followed your link to your blog, and quite frankly I am a bit disturbed by your take on race.

Well sure, people who have had it hammered in their head their whole lives that they should feel guilty for who they are, are going to be a bit disturbed by my take on race, since I don't do guilt since I don't carry guilt around since my guilt as been atoned for in the Cross.

Could you please explain exactly what you believe as far as race and especially racial identity?

Racist is a word invented by Marxist. It never existed until the 20th century. It was a word invented with the express purpose of creating hostility between peoples. It has succeeded magnificently as your comments reveal.

For example, do you have any issue with various races worshiping, socializing, and even marrying one another?

I have no issue with people insisting that various races worship, socialize, and even marry one another just as I have no problem with people insisting that various races shouldn't worship, socialize, and even marry one another. If people think it proper to worship in the monocultural setting of multiculturalism that is their business. If people think it proper to worship in the mono-cultural setting of their particular culture that is their business.

I'm completely sanguine about it.

>even marrying one another?

Not "even," but "especially marrying one another." That's the true test of our hearts.

And Bret, the idea that Doug is PC is leading to some great hilarity here in Bloomington, right now.

Really, it wouldn't be shameful to admit that you, with me and the rest of us here, may still benefit from the correction and exhortation of brothers in Christ.

Warmly in Christ,

Well sure, people who have had it hammered in their head their whole lives that they should feel guilty for who they are, are going to be a bit disturbed by my take on race, since I don't do guilt since I don't carry guilt around since my guilt as been atoned for in the Cross.

I don't feel guilty about who I am, but some of your comments on your blog might make me feel guilty if I was black. You impugn an entire race of people with a “notable exceptions” qualifier.

Bret, I grew up in a school with extreme racial prejudices on both sides, which manifested itself in violence and intimidation (including against me more than one time). I grew up in an area where calling someone a racial epithet was perfectly acceptable. OTOH, the only PC influence I had was my parents telling me not to treat other human beings in that manner. If you think this is PC, then fine. This wholesome white southern culture some like to worship is hardly what is being characterized as. I have seen it first hand for the first 18 years of my life, and much of the southern culture is extremely repugnant and disgusting. While there are some redeeming aspects to it, much of it serves to glorify ignorance, injustice, hatred, and anti-intellectualism. To the extent that Christianity pervaded it, it was a great thing, but to the extent that it defended the great moral evil of Chattel slavery, it lost much moral authority.

I also find it quite humorous that the same ilk that where once calling for segregation, now criticize things such as black colleges, the United Negro College Fund, etc. These organizations where created precisely because this great southern culture would not let them integrate. Now they are called racists. There are black colleges and black charities specifically because of white racism, not the other way around. Besides that, most black colleges allow whites in, which cannot be said of white colleges in the South 50 years ago.

Forget about saving the Southern culture; let’s allow Christ to build a new culture through His Church, without respect to persons or geography.

i>even marrying one another?

Not "even," but "especially marrying one another." That's the true test of our hearts.

Good point Tim. Of course, this would have been forbidden in almost any southern Protestant Church 200 years ago. Actually, it would have been forbidden in most SBCs near where I grew up just 30 years ago. I think my whole point is that the Churches view on race needed changing from what it once was.

Its not like the Church has always got that right, but when we point that out, we are called PC.

And Bret, the idea that Doug is PC is leading to some great hilarity here in Bloomington, right now.

Are we talking Doug Wilson? There is no Doug posting on this entry.

Brett,

I spent the first 25 years of my life as Arminian. I repented and "fessed up." I spent the next 10 years hostile to paedo baptism. I repented and fessed up.

Nothing to point to yet on this blog because I haven't been wrong yet about anything while posting here.

When I'm wrong about something you'll be the first one I'll let know.

Bret

When I'm wrong about something you'll be the first one I'll let know.

I must have missed a few of your emails then. :)

Careful Brett ... I lived 15 years in that culture and ministered in my first pastorate for seven years, and while there indeed were difficulties, I did find it, on the whole, to be quite wholesome.

Perhaps it has degenerated, but most of what I saw was base tribalism and hatred. I can tell you that I would rather break down in the black part of my old town than where the stars and bars are proudly displayed.

Yep, the only thing that I can think of that was a greater moral evil than chattel slavery was the transcendentalism that informed abolitionism.

Perhaps this shows you the depths of poverty in the American Church of the 19th century, that deist were the ones to take the correct moral stand? If I remember correctly, Wesley has hardly a transcendentalist, and he stood strongly against the practice in his country.

I also find it quite humorous that the same ilk that were once calling for segregation, now criticize things such as black colleges, the United Negro College Fund, etc. These organizations were created precisely because this great southern culture would not let them integrate. Now they are called racists. There are black colleges and black charities specifically because of white racism, not the other way around. Besides that, most black colleges allow whites in, which cannot be said of white colleges in the South 50 years ago.

Don't know anything about them. Never called them Racist, since I don't believe that racist means anything objective except the attempt to vilify the person who has the pejorative hurled at them.

You do know something about them according to your blog:

For example, among the PC crowd, it is perfectly acceptable to have a United Negro College fund but people would think it racist odd if people asked for donations for the United Caucasian College fund. For example, among the PC crowd, black people can talk about what it means to be ‘Black and Reformed,’ but let somebody start talking about what it means to be ‘White and Reformed’ and suddenly the conversation is racist.

I have no problem with organizations like the Black Congressional Caucus or Miss Black America, or Laraza or any number of other organizations committed to advance the agenda of any particular ethnic group. My only problem arises when it becomes racist for European, White, Christians to have organizations to promote the advance of their own unique culture.

I agree you don’t call them racists. In fact, you say they are acceptable so long as you can create white ones. You really miss the boat here as the black ones where created because the culture itself explicitly and legally prevented blacks from going to college. There were certainly no scholarships. Should they be disbanded? Probably eventually, but you can only blame the formation of these on white racism. OTOH, if you created some sort of Whites only college fund, what would be the motivation of this? Furthermore, you really reveal your hand, when you say that it is acceptable to advance your race to the exclusion of others.

You know, its a funny thing about the book of Revelation. In that book you have people streaming into the New Jerusalem by nation. What do you suppose that means Brett?

I would say that Southern culture that is redeemed will look different from Black culture that is redeemed that will look different from Mongolian culture that is redeemed that will look different from Inca culture that is redeemed. And I would say that is OK ... indeed that it is good because God likes diversity.

God is redeeming a people but that people will still retain their ethnic identities and that is a good thing. Many parts ... One body.

Now that is multi-culturalism. So much for Paul’s statement that there is no Jew nor Greek…

None of those cultures redeemed will look anything like the degenerate cultures they are today. That I know for sure. Not sure if I share the same Post-millennial viewpoint as you, but I’m still trying to sort all of that out. So far, I’m partial preterist, a-mill, and not sure how optimistic. :)

Reformatted again. Can someone delete the last two?

Careful Brett ... I lived 15 years in that culture and ministered in my first pastorate for seven years, and while there indeed were difficulties, I did find it, on the whole, to be quite wholesome.

Perhaps it has degenerated, but most of what I saw was base tribalism and hatred. I can tell you that I would rather break down in the black part of my old town than where the stars and bars are proudly displayed.

Yep, the only thing that I can think of that was a greater moral evil than chattel slavery was the transcendentalism that informed abolitionism.

Perhaps this shows you the depths of poverty in the American Church of the 19th century, that deist were the ones to take the correct moral stand? If I remember correctly, Wesley has hardly a transcendentalist, and he stood strongly against the practice in his country.

I also find it quite humorous that the same ilk that were once calling for segregation, now criticize things such as black colleges, the United Negro College Fund, etc. These organizations were created precisely because this great southern culture would not let them integrate. Now they are called racists. There are black colleges and black charities specifically because of white racism, not the other way around. Besides that, most black colleges allow whites in, which cannot be said of white colleges in the South 50 years ago.

Don't know anything about them. Never called them Racist, since I don't believe that racist means anything objective except the attempt to vilify the person who has the pejorative hurled at them.

You do know something about them according to your blog:

For example, among the PC crowd, it is perfectly acceptable to have a United Negro College fund but people would think it racist odd if people asked for donations for the United Caucasian College fund. For example, among the PC crowd, black people can talk about what it means to be ‘Black and Reformed,’ but let somebody start talking about what it means to be ‘White and Reformed’ and suddenly the conversation is racist.

I have no problem with organizations like the Black Congressional Caucus or Miss Black America, or Laraza or any number of other organizations committed to advance the agenda of any particular ethnic group. My only problem arises when it becomes racist for European, White, Christians to have organizations to promote the advance of their own unique culture.

I agree you don’t call them racists. In fact, you say they are acceptable so long as you can create white ones. You really miss the boat here as the black ones where created because the culture itself explicitly and legally prevented blacks from going to college. There were certainly no scholarships. Should they be disbanded? Probably eventually, but you can only blame the formation of these on white racism. OTOH, if you created some sort of Whites only college fund, what would be the motivation of this? Furthermore, you really reveal your hand, when you say that it is acceptable to advance your race to the exclusion of others.

You know, its a funny thing about the book of Revelation. In that book you have people streaming into the New Jerusalem by nation. What do you suppose that means Brett?

I would say that Southern culture that is redeemed will look different from Black culture that is redeemed that will look different from Mongolian culture that is redeemed that will look different from Inca culture that is redeemed. And I would say that is OK ... indeed that it is good because God likes diversity.

God is redeeming a people but that people will still retain their ethnic identities and that is a good thing. Many parts ... One body.

Now that is multi-culturalism. So much for Paul’s statement that there is no Jew nor Greek…

None of those cultures redeemed will look anything like the degenerate cultures they are today. That I know for sure. Not sure if I share the same Post-millennial viewpoint as you, but I’m still trying to sort all of that out. So far, I’m partial preterist, a-mill, and not sure how optimistic. :)

There

That was succinct. :)