The clarity and simplicity of Scripture's doctrine of sexuality...

(Note from Tim Bayly: This message was delivered October 5, 1998 in Riga, Latvia, at a conference titled "Gender Theology: Questions, Problems, Perspectives," held by the Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church.)

It is a great joy to be here with you and to think of how impossible this time together would have been just a few years ago. How good it is to be able to cross borders so freely--without even the necessity of a visa--and to be able to join together in fellowship and worship with you, my brothers and sisters in Christ.

But then too, I am particularly pleased to be able to speak to you on the subject of Biblical manhood and womanhood. Here it may be appropriate to insert some biographical information, but first please allow me to clarify my own vocabulary:

  • 'Complement': "something that fills up, completes, or makes perfect; one of two mutually completing parts" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).
  • 'Patriarchy': literally, "father rule."
  • 'Egalitarian': "a belief in human equality" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

So, when I refer to the different positions taken by Christians today concerning what Scripture has to say about manhood and womanhood, I will use these terms:

First, the words 'complementarian' or 'patriarchal' will be used to indicate the Church's historical position which calls for a distinction in roles between men and women in the government of the Church and home; and particularly to the necessity of men holding positions of authority.

Second, the word 'egalitarian' will be used to indicate the position held by feminists today when they call for women to hold leadership positions of authority equally with men.

Now for some personal history: Although today I myself believe in the Church's historical, patriarchal position, it was not always so. Back in 1976 when my wife and I were first married, both of us were committed egalitarians...

When I was first ordained as a Minister of the Word and Sacrament, it was within a presbyterian denomination that, in its constitution, required the ordination of women to all offices--including the pastorate and eldership. Because of this I have worked extensively with women pastors and elders down through the years and I myself have participated in their ordination to ecclesiastical office. Then eight years ago, along with my congregation I departed from one presbyterian denomination and entered another.

The elders and I could no longer allow ourselves to be in fellowship with a denomination which endorsed abortion as "an act of faithfulness before God," winked at infanticide, promoted fornication, perpetually debated the morality of homosexuality, failed to practice any form of church discipline, and, generally speaking, called evil 'good' and good 'evil'.

It was evident to us that our denomination had forsaken the Word of God and, instead, had taken to ordaining to the Ministry of the Word and Sacrament women and men who would say whatever their congregation's itching ears wanted to hear.

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. (2 Timothy 4:1-4, NIV).

Itching ears have given us gender anarchy and a cult of androgyny within the Church today.

As our own congregation grew in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, and devotion to His Word, the Bible, we found ourselves returning to all the old truths which our denomination was abandoning. One area where we saw dramatic change in our community life was this matter of the ordination of women to the pastorate and eldership. Although historically our congregation had been led by both men and women elders, now as our congregation grew, spiritually, women who in the past had often served as elders began to decline election to this position, and at the same time we saw an increase of men who were willing to take on leadership in their homes and in the church.

In a few years, one of the two congregations I served (it was a yoked parish) no longer had any women on its board of elders and this led to our coming under the rebuke of our denomination since we were violating the constitutional requirement that women and men hold office in equal numbers in each local congregation.

After about a year and a half of deliberation within our board of elders, we decided to leave that denomination, the Presbyterian Church (USA), and join another denomination, the Presbyterian Church in America.

This second denomination still honors Scripture, and she is a community of believers still confessing what Scripture clearly says: that abortion, infanticide, fornication, and homosexuality are sin. Further, church discipline is still practiced within this ecclesiastical fellowship, the Bible is still honored, and only men are eligible for the offices of pastor and elder.

While I was in the process of transferring my credentials, I was examined by the local presbytery I was seeking to enter within the PCA and was asked the following question: "Do you believe in the ordination of women as pastors and elders?"

I answered, "No; in the past I have ordained women but I repent."

Why did I (and do I) repent of ordaining women to the eldership?

Because the Bible with great clarity and simplicity forbids women to exercise authority over men.

*Luther on Loving Word of God and Conflict: Anyone who intends to love God and His Word will not have an easy time of it. It will often hit him between the eyes, and the love will often become the kind that the devil sours and embitters for him. Hence we need the ability to hold tight and to be devoted to the Word of God. -Luther's Works, Volume 21; edited by Jaroslav Pelikan; Concordia Publishing House; Saint Louis; "Sermon on Matthew 6:24," p. 191.

The clarity and simplicity of God's commands concerning these matters is devastating to those moderns and postmoderns who try to use Scripture for their own purposes. This is why I have a certain respect for the original feminists such as the late Paul King Jewett of Fuller Theological Seminary who, in his classic work, Man as Male and Female, had the integrity simply to say that the Bible is clear and the Bible is wrong (pp. 118-119). It is also why I respect secular feminists who, having no need to honor Scripture or its Author, put it bluntly as they see it saying: "The Bible is hopelessly patriarchal," by which they mean that because of its patriarchy we must reject Scripture.

Yet many claim the Bible is much more nuanced on these matters than the church, historically, has recognized. They would claim the overwhelming theme of Scripture concerning manhood and womanhood is egalitarianism, and that the texts cited by the Church to prove that women should not hold authority in the Church and home were misinterpreted in the past but now are, through the latest scholarship, finally having their true meaning become clear.

This I deny, remembering G. K. Chesterton's warning:

*Chesterton on Latest Scholarship: Nearly all the talk about what is advanced and what is antiquated has become a sort of giggling excitement about fashions. -The Thing, G.K. Chesterton, p. 62.

So what has always been clear is becoming quite confused due to the desire of biblical scholars to appease the political and ideological idols of our culture. And in the process of this appeasement, the reformed doctrine of the perspicuity (clarity) of Scripture no longer seems to apply to even the most basic areas of Scripture's teaching on sexuality.

Improvement makes strait roads; but the crooked roads without Improvement are roads of genius. -William Blake

But whose genius--God's or man's? Are we still willing to walk Christ's straight and narrow path? Is it human genius and creativity we should seek, or Divine Revelation?

To this pastor it seems the choice is not between various hermeneutical systems, but between obedience and disobedience to the Word of God. Further, it seems there are many within the "Household of Faith", the "pillar and foundation of the Truth" (1Timothy 3:15), who with great sophistication are meticulously erroneous here in this area of Christian doctrine.

To be wrong, and to be carefully wrong; That is the definition of decadence. -G. K. Chesterton

A bold statement, but can it be proven? Test it and see. Turn with me, please, to the Word of God and let us see there the simplicity with which the Holy Spirit speaks to this issue of the meaning and purpose of sexuality.

God created Adam and Eve "in His Own Image" thereby revealing their essential equality in bearing His image.

Genesis 1:26-28; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

This is a part of the truth that is the basis of the Apostle Paul's statement concerning the community of saints:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28, NAS95).

But there are other truths that must be brought forward also in this debate. They are as follows:

First, God created Eve after Adam (order of creation).


For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. (1 Timothy 2:13, NAS95).

Second, God created Eve for Adam (purpose of creation).

Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." (Genesis 2:18-23, NAS95).

Third, God Created Eve from Adam (his body was used).

For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man. (1 Corinthians 11:8, NAS95).

Fourth, Adam named Eve just as he named the animals.

Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." (Genesis 2:19, 22-23, NAS95).

Fifth, in Adam we all died; not in Eve. Nowhere does Scripture lay the blame for the Fall at Eve's door.

The order of creation establishes timeless principles for the relationships between men and women which we often are reminded of in discussions of biblical manhood and womanhood today, but here is one of those principles which too often is passed over by the Church.

God, walking in the Garden in the cool of the day, inquires of Adam "Where are you?" When Adam responds by explaining that he and Eve found themselves naked and hid, it is notable that God directs His follow-up question again to Adam asking him:

"Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" (Genesis 3:11, NAS95).

It was Adam, not Eve, who was required to explain the tragic alienation from God they both had suffered, and this despite Eve having been the one deceived,  the first one to sin, and the one who enticed her husband to follow her into that sin. This is neither a small or unimportant aspect of the Genesis account: it was Adam whom God first held responsible for the Fall despite Adam being the second sinner in the Garden.

It is because of the sin of Adam--not Eve--that the race of Adam remains under the curse of judgement and death down to this present day.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Romans 5:12-14, NAS95).

Some years back my father noted that, despite efforts to neuter the language of our Faith, he had yet to hear anyone propose that the Church become a 'he' or Satan become a 'she.' Similarly, it seems ironic that feminists do not object to the essential inequality between the sexes revealed by this portion of the Biblical account of the Fall. Shouldn't Eve be recognized as the leader in the Garden? Shouldn't Eve have been penalized more severely since it was she who took the lead in the sin of the Garden? Aren't we being patronizing when we attribute the cosmic penalties of the Fall to Adam's account?

Perhaps feminists fail to argue the issue because this particular point happens to be one where they rather like the clear meaning of God's Word. There's no question but that the Bible is quite specific on this issue... as the New England Primer (one of the most widely used textbooks in the early history of the United States) succinctly sums it up:

In Adam's fall We sinned all.

God's Word makes clear that because God made Eve for Adam and placed her under his authority, it was Adam whom God called to account for the Fall. Adam was the patriarch of his home and his race. (This is not to say that Eve escaped personal accountability; in Genesis 3 we read that God also placed Eve under a curse- the punishment that even today brings suffering to all women in childbirth. So too the serpent and his descendents suffer under God's judgment.) Yet it is through Adam alone that death comes to all men, it is because of Adam's sin that all creation groans awaiting its release from the corruption of sin (Romans 8:22,23), and it is in Adam that we all die:

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:21-22, NAS95).

God has named the human race 'adam,' and this name reinforces what the whole account of the creation of Adam and Eve reveals-that the first woman was made after and for the first man and that for all time this structure is to be mirrored in the lives of God's people by their living together under patriarchy, not matriarchy or egalitarian utopianism. Further, this name also makes clear that every woman or man ever to live has been born under the curse of a God-decreed solidarity with the First Adam, our federal head, and that only those who come under the Head of the Second Adam can be saved.

When we leave the Genesis account and move into the New Testament epistles, we see that the Apostle Paul prohibits the exercise of authority over men by women by saying "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, for Adam was created first, then Eve." (1 Timothy 2:12a, NAS95). Thus Scripture demonstrates that the principles enumerated for us in these first three chapters of the Bible are timeless boundaries for all mankind. We are dealing here, then, with an order of creation which is timeless in it's principles and application.

This is a perfect example of the analogy of faith, Scripture interpreting Scripture.

With this simple statement ("I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, for Adam was created first, then Eve" [1Timothy 2:12]) Paul explicitly affirms what is implicit throughout God's Word, that the order of creation establishes patriarchy as God's pattern for leadership in human relationships. Addressing the matter of propriety in prayer, the Apostle Paul again emphasizes this order: "For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake" (1 Corinthians 11:8,9, NAS95).

Does this mean that the Bible only says God's 'no,' and never God's 'yes,' to women?

Not at all. Titus 2 provides a beautiful picture of the positive roles and duties that God has given to older and younger women down through the ages.

Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. (Titus 2:3-5, NAS95).

What is God's loving and perfect 'yes' to women?

-Older women likewise are

-to be reverent in their behavior,
-not malicious gossips
-nor enslaved to much wine,
-teaching what is good, so that they may

-encourage the young women

-to love their husbands,
-to love their children,
-to be sensible,
-pure,
-workers at home,
-kind,
-being subject to their own husbands,

-WHY?

-so that the word of God will not be (maligned or) dishonored. (Titus 2:3-5, NAS95).

Note here that God's reputation is at stake with our obedience to these commands.

How beautiful this Scripture is, and how full of possibilities for those who are not in rebellion against God. Here we have a profoundly simple list of duties which have consumed the lives of Christian women down through the ages, and women who give themselves to these duties hear the words of Proverbs 31:28 repeated by their own loved ones:

Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her (Proverbs 31:28, RSV).

Looking at this list helps us understand how the Apostle Paul could boil down these positive callings even further, stating:

Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty (1 Timothy 2:15, RSV).

God be praised, I am surrounded by such women. My mother, mother-in-law, wife, and the women of our congregation are seeking to honor God by following these simple commands. (Incidentally, one indication of the Biblical commitments of these women is their fertility; my mother-in-law has ten children, my mother eight, my wife five, and the average family in our congregation has around five.)

It's clear some will not be satisfied by the above Biblical summaries, but note well that in both passages the Apostle Paul wrote these words, and only these words. If a man were to think our culture requires something different-something more substantial-he would be helped by studying the cultures Paul was addressing and realizing they are not much different from our own.

Allow me, then, to ask this question: Is sexual differentiation part of God's good creation; did God make it and call it good? Discussing 1Timothy 2:13 with Dr. Gordon Fee when I was a seminary student, I asked him one-on-one, "What does Paul mean when he says, 'For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve'?"

He responded, "Oh, Paul was just being rabbinical there."

So the argument simply is not one based on Scripture-no matter how loudly this claim is made by feminists wanting to wrap themselves in the credibility of a high view of Scripture. May God grant us all repentance whenever we depart from His Truth.

*Calvin on Acts 4:19,20:

But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard." (Acts 4:19,20)

Let us remember to whom they made this answer. For this council did undoubtedly represent the Church; yet, because they abuse their authority, the apostles say they are not to be obeyed... The apostles further make clear that obedience offered to evil and unfaithful pastors, even though they exercise lawful authority in the Church, is contrary to God.

Whatever title then men may hold, they are to be listened to only on the condition that they do not lead us away from obeying God. So we must examine all their traditions by the rule of the Word of God. We must obey princes and others who are in authority, but only in so far as they do not deny to God His rightful authority as the supreme King, Father, and Lord. If such limits are to be observed in civil government, they ought to be of still greater importance in the spiritual government of the Church. ...whenever men (or women) become so proud that they shake off the yoke of God and desire to lay their own yoke upon us... let us recall the sacred authority of God, which blows away the vain smoke of all human excellency.

-Calvin's Commentary on Acts 4.

Make no mistake about it: the Western World will invade your nation and church with its egalitarian ideology and will seek to force your submission to that ideology.

There is one other matter I would like to mention before closing. Within the evangelical church of the United States it is often said that those holding to complementarian (or patriarchal) convictions ought graciously to allow for their own subjectivity and fallibility by carefully acknowledging, publicly, that their own understanding of Scripture on this matter may, in fact, be wrong.

Despite the irenic tone of this proposal it assumes that this is an area in which God's Revelation is lacking in clarity, and while I am ready to admit that I am unable to see the clarity of the Word of God on a number of doctrinal matters which the Church has been debating for many centuries, this is one aspect of the doctrine of Scripture which is most decidedly not lacking in clarity. Consequently I am unwilling to grant as a virtue the doubting of oneself by those holding the only Biblical position on this matter. No.

Rather, here we must contend for the Faith once delivered. And considering our duty, I am reminded of a statement made by Solzhenitsyn immediately prior to his departure from the US in 1994:

* Solzhenitsyn on Doubting Oneself: Back in the study, I asked Solzhenitsyn about his relations with the West. He knew that things had gone wrong, but had no intention of making any apologies.

"Instead of secluding myself here and writing The Big Wheel, I suppose I could have spent time making myself likable to the West," he said. "The only problem is that I would have had to drop my way of life and my work. And, yes, it is true, when I fought the dragon of Communist power I fought it at the highest pitch of expression. The people in the West were not accustomed to this tone of voice. In the West, one must have a balanced, calm, soft voice; one ought to make sure to doubt oneself, to suggest that one may, of course, be completely wrong. But I didn't have the time to busy myself with this. This was not my main goal."

-The New Yorker, February 14, 1994, p. 74

Will we be faithful to our Lord honoring His Word in this matter, or rather bow the knee to Baal?

*Martin Luther on Breach in Wall: If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages, the loyalty of the soldier is proved, and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point. -attributed.

It is my firm conviction that feminism is an evil like communism-equally destructive to the souls of men and, therefore, equally in need of forthright and bold opposition from Godly men who are willing to spend their lives honoring God and opposing this wickedness with every fiber of their being. And I sincerely hope that the men and women fighting this great evil in the Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are not paralyzed by the fear of men, and that they never give in to doubt as they guard this part of the "good deposit."

May God protect us from Satan's lies and may He raise up more faithful shepherds to call His flock back to obedience in these matters so that our homes and families and the Church of Jesus Christ may again reflect the marriage of Christ and His Bride, the Church, with all purity, beauty, and love.

In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; Amen.

Comments

Ya know, I tried to be an egalitarian for a while, and then my wife has done her utmost to persuade me of my error--sometimes to where I'm astounded at her delight in this.

I'm persuaded, and my minivan is full as a result.

Tim,

This is one that I have printed out and marked up - very good!

It is not only the created order, but God's sovereign choices, repeatedly throughout human history, which show us God's law concerning sexuality.

Kamilla

What a baseless fantasy

who has always been responsible for all evil on this earth women or men?FIRST AS THE LAST SIN ON EARTH WAS COMMITED BY A MAN

Annabelle,

Huh?

Kamilla

C'mon Kamilla get it straight. Your question should read:

Huh?ANNABELLE

you provided some fiction based on hatred towards women.Iprovided just a reality fact that left you speechless you don't know how to answer

Robbers,murderers,killers,child abusers,abductors,rapists,muggers...the list could be endless.But what do they have in common?

And if only women were in power this world would be a nearly perfect place to live in.Just look what evil men have done of this world

Dear Annabelle,

Sin equally defaces the Image of God in man and woman--neither is better than the other. Men abuse their wives, true; but mothers kill their children, born and unborn. Only God is holy, but He is not a mother. Rather, He is the Father from Whom all Fatherhood gets its name.

And the mark of a Christian is that He loves God precisely as Father, with his heart crying out to the One Who loved him first and sent His Son to die on the cross for him, "Abba! Father!"

Whatever evil has been done to you by men, remember that God is a perfect Father who will never leave or forsake His adopted sons and daughters.

Come to him, then, in repentance and faith. And may I recommend reading the Gospel of John to see his Fatherhood in relation to His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ?

May God bless you with faith in Jesus Christ and a heart that cries out, "Abba! Father!"

Tim,

You and David both know a woman who used to sound a lot angrier than Annabelle and look what happened to her. I think you even became friends after she described you (rather publicly, I might add) in not very flattering terms.

I pray you and David both remain faithful shepherds.

Kamilla

you provided some fiction based on hatred towards women.Iprovided just a reality fact that left you speechless you don't know how to answer

Honestly I am just having difficulty processing your run on sentences. Does Mars Hill have an English department?

Robbers,murderers,killers,child abusers,abductors,rapists,muggers...the list could be endless

Kind of like a sentence searching for a period eh?

I truly have no idea who Jessica, you make me laugh.Where do you get your information from?

What I said above are only facts of reality.Prove it wrong if you can.

I also want to mention that on all catholic sites that I've seen ,nobody is ever talking about love ,charity, how to become a better persone, how to help millions of children in this world dying of hunger...Their only obsession is how to keep women subjugated.You are really giving us a good picture of your religion...

Actually, Annabelle you have provided no "facts of reality" or even just plain garden-variety facts. What you have provided is a lot of bald assertion, most of which doesn't even make sense, such as, "FIRST AS THE LAST SIN ON EARTH WAS COMMITED BY A MAN"

Silly me, I didn't know the last sin on earth had been committed as yet.

Kamilla

Excellent article gentlemen! Well written, well said.

And Annabelle, if you want us to prove facts wrong, then please post some facts for people to examine and counter. You haven't done so yet. All that is clear from your posts is that you are bitter and/or angry and did not at all agree with the message in this post.

Dear Anabelle, I've pulled the text that was inaccurate from my comment above. I apologize for mistaking you for Jennifer. Please forgive me.

Annabelle,

Grace, and peace to you.

Communicating via blog comments is sometimes very difficult. For example, I am having trouble understanding the message you are attempting to convey, and it seems that you are very angry.

It might work better if we could communicate via phone or at least email (my gmail address is keith.lamothe , though my wife may be better equipped to answer your questions). Through the years I've talked with several people very angry at Christianity, and sometimes I've managed to genuinely assist them in finding answers to their questions, but I don' think I've ever managed it apart from vocal communication.

In any event, I pray that the Lord will bless you with peace of mind and soul.

Blessings,

Keith

Pastor Bayly,

I believe that the graduate named "Jennifer" from Mars Hill Graduate School previously identified as Annabelle actually posted on a different blog topic (which I can't seem to locate at the moment) under the name 'A Latina Woman.'

I will try to do it as briefly as possible,some exemples:

-All serious crimes ever have only been commited by men,even though they live in a world advantageous to them.Women are the ones who are oppressed,discriminated ,work for free etc but they don't become criminals.

-I've known fathers who spend money on their own fun,alcohol etc but leave their children hungry.But I've never known a mother who would do that.By the way ,fathers are always more absent,anyway still head of the family.

-So much suffering in the world,the leaders minds are set on killing and spreading suffering.While in poor countries millions of people die of hunger,how many millions of dollars are spent by leaders each years on weapons?Weapons and wars that lead nowhere but to more destruction and suffering.That's why ,if women were in power,world would be much better.

But women never use those arguments against men,insisting on male submission.

I find it ironic that satan would be a ,,she'' as you and churches say it.

Don't get me wrong,

I absolutely don't mean that all men are wicked.But all christian sites that I've seen are either identical to this one or much worse.They are only madly obsessed with female submission,nothing else.

I might be wrong,if you disagree answer but use something concrete ,please

point number one: All the women's prisons in the USA and not just filled with white collar crime types.

point number two: I could speak of my own experience with my mother at this point but it would not be edifying.

Annabelle,

Do the names Andrea Yates, Susan Smith and Valeria Maxon mean nothing to you? All are women who have murdered their children. I think that qualifies as serious crime, don't you?

As for mothers never leaving their children hungry? What planet are you living on? I've had patients admit openly that they had this last child for the bump in their government support check. It's one more night they can go out partying while grandmother is sitting at home raising and feeding the children children.

The only countries in the world where people are dying of mass starvation are those with corrupt governments. Over the last several decades the United States has given enough money to Africa to forgive their entire debt several times over and yet we still have famine. It's not about the money, it's about corruption.

If women were in power the world would be much better? Try Margaret Thatcher, Benazir Bhutto and Golda Meir, for starters. I don't think any of those three women had ever been photographed putting a daisy in the end of a gun, have they?

Annabelle, I'm sorry, but you seem to be living in a feminist fantasy world. As Tim said, "Sin equally defaces the Image of God in man and woman--neither is better than the other". You ask for concrete examples, I have given you six women who should be easily able to check out on the internet and one example from my experience in healthcare. I'd ask for the same courtesy from you instead of more feminist propaganda.

Kamilla

Dear Annabelle,

This blog has addressed much more than the issue of women and submission I think you can easily find many other topics on here aside from this one. Tim and David do spend a great deal of time addressing this issue at length. The other issue that gets this much ink is abortion. Though it would be untrue to say that it does so at the expense of other important issues, the is a marked emphasis on these two topics or perhaps more broadly the topic of authority in general, is because these areas where the the Church and the Bible are being attacked.

The things you describe in your above post are indeed great evils, these are, however, not the results of "Patriarchalism" but rather the consequences of men abdicating their God ordained role as leaders. God will deal harshly with those who leave their children. The Bible says that it would be better to have a millstone fastened around the neck of whoever would cause little ones to stumble. What you address as problems (failure of fathers, husband, and leaders) are precisely the issues that Tim and David have addressed. The solution, in other words, is that men should be men again. Treat women with respect and honor, love their children, provide for their families. But not merely this but that we should love and honor God who is our Father in Heaven; perfect, Holy and just. He will hear the widow's case and he will make right all the wrongs. But to understand God as such a Father we must first have seen earthly fathers conforming themselves to him.

Mick,

Thank you so much for this!

Annabelle,

Mick is so very right here. You probably haven't lurked around these precincts long enough to know that I used to be a rabid feminist and staunch opponent to Tim and David and nearly all they stand for. But I can honestly tell you, I have never been treated with more respect and honor than I have by them - and men like them who you might think are obsessed with female submission.

It's a scary thing (female submission to male authority), I readily grant that. And it has certainly been misused. But the remedy is not feminism or matriarchy. The remedy is repentence and reconciliation to the Patriarch of patriarchs.

I don't know how old you are, but let me be brutally honest with you right now. I am 48 years old now and one of my biggest regrets is that I have left it too late, that I rebelled for so long the chance of being chosen by a godly man has passed me by. Someday, you will regret it as well if you continue in your rebellion.

Kamilla

Dear CBDM, You're right; here's her comment left under "Why Pastoral Courage Matters:"

"Please, when will American Christians, and churches cease to be enmeshed with the empire and actually see that men, like, Brian M, has actually differentiated from American culture--a consumerist, grandiose, narcissistic, patriarchal society, and actually read the Bible differentiated from these things and see the Word of God is not for White middle class Christian men to keep themselves in power and oppressing by their sheer ignorance of their privilege in the empire...people in power always live in fear of losing power, hence their desperateness to tell everyone they are right...the powerless actually live in freedom knowing their power is in the Kingdom of God and not in the empire."

* * *

Dear Anabelle,

Without revealing anything personal, would you mind, please, telling us a little about yourself--maybe your age, sex, nationality, experience with Christians (is any of it personal, or is it all on the internet), experience with a Christian church, and stuff like that. It would be a big help to those talking with you, here, and we'd be grateful.

Thanks,

Tim Bayly

> That's why,if women were in power, world would be much better.

The foolishness you assert almost sounds like someone lampooning feminist reasoning. Where is it that women are so much better than men? Are you even aware of your own sinful nature?

> While in poor countries millions of people die of hunger,how many millions of dollars are spent by leaders each years on weapons?

Weapons? At least those are for protection. How about clothes? Have you never heard of Imelda Marcos' shoes? Wikipedia says: "After the Marcos family fled Malacañang Palace, Imelda was found to own 15 mink coats, 508 gowns, 888 handbags and 1060 pairs of shoes." There are a lot of hungry people in the Philippines.

And please check out Elena Ceauşescu and the extremely oppressive Communist government in Romania:

"In June 1973 she became a member of the Politburo of the Romanian Communist Party becoming the second most important and influential person after Ceauşescu himself. She was deeply involved in party administration alongside her husband."

"She enjoyed being referred by the title 'Mother of the Nation.' However, she was not particularly maternal, having been quoted as saying about her countrymen that 'the worms never get satisfied, no matter how much food you give them.' It is quite possible that Elena Ceauşescu was the most hated person in Romania during the 25-year rule of her husband."

"She also headed the State health commission, which denied the existence of AIDS in Romania, leading to one of the largest outbreaks (including pediatric cases) in the western world."

Read more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elena_Ceau%C5%9Fescu

Since you claim it is the men who come up with all these nasty weapons, let's not overlook Rihab Taha, "an Iraqi microbiologist who worked in Saddam Hussein's biological weapons program. A 1999 report commissioned by the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Defense Intelligence Agency named her as one of the world's most dangerous women. She was nicknamed 'Dr. Germ' by UN weapons inspectors. Dr Taha has admitted producing germ warfare agents, but said they had been destroyed." Go to the site yourself and see the list of biological weapons she admitted working on. She is also suspected of experimenting on humans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Germ

And let us not forget her sister-in-crime, Huda Salih Mahdi Ammash, "an American-educated Iraqi scientist, dubbed Mrs. Anthrax and Chemical Sally. Ammash was number 53 on the Pentagon's list of the 55 most wanted, the five of hearts in the deck of Most wanted Iraqi playing cards, and the only woman to be featured."

Amazingly, the heartless, warmongering men who held them in custody let both these women go without any charges being filed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huda_Salih_Mahdi_Ammash

Surely German women willingly worked in the women sections of the Nazi death camps. Feminists have poor memories.

> I absolutely don't mean that all men are wicked.

Actually, we men are all quite wicked. And the more society rejects God, the more wicked society will become. That's why we need Jesus. How about you? Putting women in charge will change nothing. [Are you not familiar with all the corruption and scandal surrounding Hillary Clinton while she was with the Rose Law Firm in Arkansas?] I hate to burst your bubble, but women's hearts are just as evil as men's. To each his own vice. Women can be more vicious than men, they just have other ways of going about it. Searching "girl fight" on YouTube might prove interesting [82,300 results].

Unfortunately, feminism makes women more masculine and aggressive. Not a good thing in your book.

"Weapons and wars that lead nowhere but to more destruction and suffering."

So, we shouldn't have any means of national defense, then? Are you ready to learn Arabic and wear a burqa?

--Michael

Hello

I didn't try to change your opinions,I can't. But maybe to make you think

It's sad that there are women who still beleive blindly in those verses written 2000years ago.Feel free to do whatever makes you happy ,nothing you decide to do is wrong as long as you respect laws and people.

Things such as religions as well as feminism are about personal opinions and convictions.Knowing that all people can never have same beleifs,calling feminism evil is disrespectful.I mean,there are people who don't share your opinions,but what if they said that Christianity is evil?

According to the church,in an ideal home,there shall always be home-made cookies,meals etc.A home that is always tidy.Nice to see?Yes.But it isn't absence of dust or home-made cookies that make a family happy!

And how come a woman if giving birth to a boy she will be foul(or dirty)for one week,but if she gives birth to a girl she will be foul for two weeks?Why is she foul at all?Bible says so.And women aren't allowed to talk in the church because it's a shame if they do.Bible says so.I also knew people who had been taught in the church that ,,wise men never trust a woman''.

Then it'up to each and one of us to judge whether the bible is correct or not.

I'm a 26 years old European woman

Annabelle,

I believe it is sad when *anyone* believes *anything* blindly. However, nearly everything you say about Christianity is either utterly false or built on stereotypes. I find myself wondering how many genuine Christians you can have know that you think the "church" teaches that homes must always be clean, tidy and full of freshly baked cookies!

Yes, of course, we are all free to hold our own opinions - but merely holding an opinion, however strongly, does not make the opnion true.

By the way, truth is never disrespectful though it often seems so to the one hearing it.

Kamilla

> [Annabelle:] It's sad that there are women who still beleive blindly in those verses written 2000 years ago.

It is sad that someone tries to live their life without following the provided Instruction Manual, blindly going through life with no clue what it's all about, where they came from. They don't know or don't care that God made them and loves them, and don't feel the least bit obligated to him for every breath they take.

> Things such as religions as well as feminism are about personal opinions and convictions.

They can't all be right, and wishful thinking makes nothing a reality.

> Knowing that all people can never have same beleifs, calling feminism evil is disrespectful.

But it is not disrespectful to call men the source of all evil? A movement is evil that convinces its deceived followers of such things as:

--And if only women were in power this world would be a nearly perfect place to live in. Just look what evil men have done of this world

--All serious crimes ever have only been commited by men, even though they live in a world advantageous to them. Women are the ones who are oppressed, discriminated, work for free etc but they don't become criminals.

--Robbers, murderers, killers, child abusers, abductors, rapists, muggers...the list could be endless. But what do they have in common?

--who has always been responsible for all evil on this earth women or men?

This is hardly better than Hitler saying how much better the world would be without the inferior Jews messing everything up for the good people.

Any movement that teaches its followers that a woman has a legal right to kill her unborn baby if she wants to is evil. Abortion makes Hitler's holocaust look like child's play. Yet the feminists blame the men for all the evil and suffering in the world, while millions of babies are savagely dismembered in their mother's wombs through a woman's choice.

Feminism is evil. It is rebellion against lawful God-ordained authority. It either denies God or tries to reinvent him to suit its self-centered purposes.

> I'm a 26 years old European woman

Over there where the Muslims are taking over? You should familiarize yourself more with the Koran, then, since that is what Europe will be living under before the end of the century, I expect. Why are European feminists still beating the dead Christian horse? Watch out for the raging stallion about to trample you instead. Studying the Koran, the Bible will start to look a whole lot better, even provide you with some hope, instead of deadly man-made religions. It isn't Christianity that promises men a harem of virgins in the afterlife for killing unbelievers.

--Michael

Michael,

I've already studied Koran,,,make war on unbelievers,don´t be friends with Jews and Christians or you will become like them,beat up your wives if only suspecting any disobedience''...just some verses found in it.But as any other religion,Muslims are also convinced that Islam is the true one.Kamikaze only obey,,words of God'',deeds that make God happy.

You don't like to hear about those things that I mentioned above,but the religion say the same about womem.Source of all evil,inferior to men.That they have to accept that God made them inferior or else they rebel against God.And to back up those statememts,only bible is used.Am I wrong?

I'm sorry if I said anything that is utterly false,but for ex.bible does really say that women shall keep quiet in the church,because it's a shame if they talk.I'm sure you know about it...

Annabelle,

It might be helpful if you give give one or two explicite examples of verses you disagree with or don't understand.

Kamilla

The verses that I mentioned

Leviticus 12:2-5

Corinthians 14:34,35

Just some exemples...

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