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"There's a special place in hell for you..."

by David and Tim Bayly on January 16, 2008 - 6:43am

(Tim, thanks to David L.) There's so much that needs to be said about these murdered children and their so-called mothers and fathers, but I'll restrain myself and only point out that this manly sheriff, Frank Anderson, said what needed to be said about their murderer(s):

Sheriff Frank Anderson asked the public to help police find the killers and vowed to track them down “like dogs.”“We’re not going to stop until we find you and put you in a cage where you belong,” Anderson said. “There’s a special place in hell for you, and we’re going to see that you get there.”

Reading Sheriff Anderson's warning, I wondered when the last time anyone in my congregation (or any other reformed congregation, for that matter) had heard the word 'hell' spoken, let alone a warning that someone in particular would be sent there by God?

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Abortion euthanasia...

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Submitted by Eric on January 16, 2008 - 7:33am
You should be removed from your office, Mr. Bayly... and perhaps, excommunicated. A "pastor" who cannot speak with compassion about victims of a brutal murder, has forgotten that he too is a sinner, fully deserving the same demise as these women. Whatever their sins might be, and from all appearances they were many, you have dishonored the name of Jesus, the church of God, and the office of the ministry by referring to the dead as "so-called mothers" during this hour of grief and pain. Only a Pharisee can speak of sinners in this manner. Only a Pharisee can delight in the death of the wicked as you have done in this careless, off-handed remark. And yet your congregation still affords you the opportunity to pretend to have a portion in the ministry of Christ? Absolutely OUTRAGEOUS!

Submitted by Tim Bayly on January 16, 2008 - 7:59am
Dear Eric, You may be right, but I think I'm going to leave my comments up. Caring for these victims requires diagnosing all the evils properly, not simply the evils of the one(s) who pulled the trigger. I can see how you could come to the conclusion that these comments are simply to diss these fathers and mothers, but they're not. For the first couple of years of my marriage, I lived in a neighborhood just like the one in this story, with all its drugs and violence; we've had a single mother and her young son in our church living in a house just like the one in this story; and until we face the terrible evils prior to these murders and deal with them, such murders will continue unabated. Compassion for these fathers, mothers, and their children requires looking full in the face of their betrayal of their God-given duties to their children. Obviously, you're not saying the grandfather was cruel to bring up his daughter's choice of a living environment, expressing his disapproval of that choice, right? (It's in the article.) As for myself, you're absolutely right that I deserve the same death and judgment deserved by this murderer.

Submitted by Adam Spaetti on January 16, 2008 - 9:42am
Eric, There was not one word in this post that indicated that Mr. Bayly "delighted" in the death of these women and children. The only possible offense you could take is in his description of the parents as "so called mothers and fathers," but even that condemnation of the evil they brought into their homes doesn't indicate a lack of compassion. I have to wonder, would anyone think them lacking in compassion if Child Protective Services called into question the way these parents were raising their children? And yet, if a pastor who is called to warn people of the coming judgment of God and to offer them the only hope for salvation calls it into question, "Remove him! Excommunicate him!"

Submitted by Alex on January 16, 2008 - 5:48pm
Eric, If you personally know Pastor Bayly, then you may not need to read on, but if your entire judgment on him is based off of basically 5 or 6 words, then you should feel honored that he even dignified your comment with a response. To me, it appears that you're judging the thoughts and intentions of his heart, because from my point of view, I don't see it. I have a friend who believes he has the spiritual gift of discernment, and if you believe that you also have the same gift, maybe you're okay with what you're saying. Otherwise, I think you should examine your words, and how they are perceived from those who are reading them online (ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU USE WORDS IN ALL CAPS), and realize that your words are too aggressive, offensive, and inappropriate. I'll say it if nobody else wants to. And while you're at it, forgive me for being the pot to your kettle.

Submitted by Scott Tibbs on January 16, 2008 - 6:25pm
Eric, as Adam pointed out, there's nothing in Tim's post to indicate that he delighted in the death of the murder victims. That's a simple fabrication on your part. While we're talking about being Christ-like, you should be a man and admit your error. I was taken aback by Tim's comments on first reading as well. But while we all want to see the demons who killed these young women and their babies brought to harsh justice, we cannot ignore the God-given responsibility all parents have to protect their children. That includes not associating with potentially dangerous "friends". Finally, your reckless use of the word "excommunication" lacks any Biblical basis whatsoever. You don't excommunicate because you disagree with one post on a blog, even if that post is sinful (which it wasn't, in this case). That is the end of a process of dealing with serious sin, not the beginning. The main point of the post, the use of the word Hell, is appropriate in a culture that wishes to forget about eternal punishment of sin.

Submitted by Luke Hankins on January 16, 2008 - 7:19pm
Is it not true, however, that it is not man, but God alone who has the authority to say whether anyone -- murderer, child, or anything in between -- will go to hell? There is, therefore, good reason for us not to pronounce the judgment on ANYONE that there is a "special place in hell" for them, much less that we will be the ones to send them there! God delights in saving the most vile of sinners, and we should hope, pray, and earnestly desire the salvation even of our gravest enemies. Jesus commands us to love our enemies, for that is what Jesus has done on the cross. There is a difference between saying, "If you do not repent, you are in danger of hell," which is an act of warning and therefore an act of love, and saying "there is a special place in hell for you," which is a usurpation God's authority. May God forgive us for thinking it is our place to judge, and not the Lord's. Luke

Submitted by Adam Spaetti on January 16, 2008 - 7:32pm
Dear Luke, I initially had the same thought as you, but if you read Tim's post carefully, you'll see that he is not commending the judgment made by the sheriff but rather pointing out that the sheriff at least acknowledges a coming judgment during which specific individuals will be sent to hell, a fact most churches work hard to forget about.

Submitted by Luke Hankins on January 16, 2008 - 7:35pm
Dear Adam, I agree with you about pastor Bayly's intention. I think, however, that he misread the sheriff's comment. Pastor Bayly even calls the sheriff's statement a "warning." The way I read it, however, it is a simple condemnation, not a warning. That's the reason for my previous comment.

Submitted by Tim Bayly on January 16, 2008 - 8:59pm
Gentlemen, let's remember that the good sheriff is not speaking of a person, but an act, a crime, a specific kind of wickedness and those who commit it, when he issues his warning. It can't be any specific person because he has nobody in custody. So his statement precisely matches Dante who, in his "Inferno," consigns those who betray their own country or family to the deepest part of Hell, even naming Judas, Brutus, and Cassius as residents there. Maybe instead of being taken so literally, the good sheriff could be granted a certain poetic license?

Submitted by David L. on January 17, 2008 - 7:12am
What struck me so much about this story was both the egregiousness of the crime and the gut reaction of the community. These murderers have the hardest of hearts and the most seared consciences. More than that, there's a sad element of despair toward the future that would cause them to throw away their lives this way. Or else it could just be the unreflective anger or malice of a savage. I don't know what's scarier. But our theology is brought out unalloyed by times of calamity. The reactions by the community and the police demonstrate a couple of things: 1) that it's especially heinous not just to kill children but to murder them when they're being held by their mothers. The connection to abortion here is just too obvious to need pointing out. This is the way people react to the brutal killing of children, but somehow we can look the other way when Planned Parenthood does every single week what these killers in Indianapolis have done just once. 2) Crimes like this deserve swift judgement and summary punishment. No doubt it'll happen here sooner rather than later. But transfer all this to the spiritual level: our hatred of our brother is just this kind of heinous crime, and it causes a metaphysical or spiritual cry for judgement to go up. It's an offense against the Creator. How can anyone hear about this story and not have their need for a Savior reinforced? The effect of it should be for us to grasp more desperately than ever to the Cross. Here's the Indy Star's editorial: http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080117/OPINION/8011...

Submitted by Tim Bayly on January 17, 2008 - 11:22am
>>How can anyone hear about this story and not have their need for a Savior reinforced? The effect of it should be for us to grasp more desperately than ever to the Cross. Yes, and I should have said that in my initial post. Thank you, David. (Also Eric and others.)

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